Fibre optic networking for audio using POF

Mrs Wogan's lemon drizzle cake posted:

But the problem with copper is that it's capable of carrying unwelcome extra baggage along with the bits, and that seems to be where the problems lie. 

What exactly is this "unwelcome extra baggage" Chris?   How does it effect sound quality and how do we measure it?

 

I'm really not going to get drawn into yet another bits are bits debate, it's been done numerous times on this forum and elsewhere, and I didn't start this thread just to go over the same old ground again. So here's a random photo, just to change the subject....

i believe its a good idea at this stage not to worry too much about why -- but rather 'what'. in other words dos the fibre environment sound different?

what are the bits ad pieces in the photo Chris?

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

i believe its a good idea at this stage not to worry too much about why -- but rather 'what'. in other words dos the fibre environment sound different?

what are the bits ad pieces in the photo Chris?

enjoy

ken

Hi Ken

The little box in front is a switch with 3 optical ports, feeding to my router, Unitiserve and NDX. It also has an RJ45 port, which I've connected to my Netgear switch (the larger box you can see further back.) I have 'repurposed' this to connect to other devices like an iMac.

Each optical connection obviously has to have a Media Converter to take it back to copper Ethernet at the other end - here's one that connects to my Unitiserve:

.....but the really good thing about it is - which one of these would you rather have to run through your house?....

Mrs Wogan's lemon drizzle cake posted:

Fair enough. Enjoy your system. Apologies for taking your thread
"off-piste"

No worries, perhaps you were hoping for a bake-off 

Chris, thanks for posting the photos and providing further explanation.

Will be watching POF/Optical audio LAN developments with interest.

I know, I know.....I should get out more! 

nigelb posted:

 

I know, I know.....I should get out more! 

same here nigel, so you're not alone 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

nigelb posted:

 

I know, I know.....I should get out more! 

same here nigel, so you're not alone 

enjoy

ken

Me too, but as you can see, the cable dressing might take some time!

Bart posted:

Interesting Chris!  What's the advantage of POF vs. trad'l glass fibre?

Bart - cost  and thats about it. However as I I have said before until Naim start using fibre transceiver GBIC type adapter on their devices there is little advantage as it are still need to convert the ethernet to electrical and send it via UTP.

Perhaps the next generation of Naim network streamers will use GBIC adapters - which can either be copper or fibre.. it certainly what some commercial setups use. One downside of official fibre devices is that you can't run extremely short distances.. 

However I did predict once the audiophile community cotton onto fibre the prices will of up and boutique fibres will appear in fancy colours and packaging... not necessary. The quality with fibre is the transceiver.

S

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Bart posted:

Interesting Chris!  What's the advantage of POF vs. trad'l glass fibre?

Bart - cost  and thats about it. However as I I have said before until Naim start using fibre transceiver GBIC type adapter on their devices there is little advantage as it are still need to convert the ethernet to electrical and send it via UTP.

Perhaps the next generation of Naim network streamers will use GBIC adapters - which can either be copper or fibre.. it certainly what some commercial setups use. One downside of official fibre devices is that you can't run extremely short distances.. 

However I did predict once the audiophile community cotton onto fibre the prices will of up and boutique fibres will appear in fancy colours and packaging... not necessary. The quality with fibre is the transceiver.

S

Simon, yes, it would be a better solution if optical inputs were available on our audio devices. I've tried to take care with selection and siting of power supplies for media converters, as these presumably have a direct copper link into the streamer etc. Likewise, at the other end, it would be nice if we all had optical connections to our routers. Perhaps all this will come in time.

In the meantime, at least I have a LAN that was relatively easy to instal and seems to be reliable, and slightly faster than before.   

"Perhaps all this will come in time."

i believe so...

enjoy

ken

Hi Chris, this looks really interesting. Which fibre switches and media converters did you use and what power supplies did you choose?

Allan Probin posted:

Hi Chris, this looks really interesting. Which fibre switches and media converters did you use and what power supplies did you choose?

Allan, sorry for the late reply. I bought the gear from an Austrian company called Homefibre. I couldn't find a UK supplier, but they speak good English and were very helpful.

The switch has an inline SMPS for which they were able to supply a UK plug. For now, I haven't replaced it with an 'upgraded' PSU; there is, at least, optical isolation between this and my Naim gear, and it runs on a separate power circuit, so I'm not sure I need to change it.

One of the media converters is wall mounted, with a built in PSU, and I use this to connect to my router.

The two other MCs are small free-standing devices (see photo above.) They came with very cheap looking wall-wart PSUs with Euro 2-pin plugs. These are the devices I connect to my Unitiserve and streamer with short copper Ethernet cables, so I guess they are a potential Achilles Heel. I used iFi iPower PSUs for them. I first came across these last year, and when the wall-wart on my Netgear switch was damaged, I used one of these, and it seemed OK. They have subsequently been subjected to rigorous testing by forum members (thanks, Mike-B!) and they seem to work well.

Hope that helps.

Chris

joerand posted:

Andrew Everhard seems to hold his own opinion in high esteem, given his need to qualify what he writes with the statement "I'm going on record as saying ...".

Not at all, joerhand: just nailing my colours to the mast in anticipation of a lot of naysaying.

What I can't discover ... is this POF networking a standard or just a closed creation of a single company?

Eloise, that's a good point in that I'm not aware of any standard this has to conform to. If someone talks about USB 3, Cat 5e or whatever, you know what you'll be getting, but I don't think there's anything comparable for POF. The cable itself is made in a range of different versions by Mitsubishi, who publish a whole load of test data for it, and it's quite widely used in other, established applications including Toslink, and various automotive industry uses, so not too obscure.

The switches and media converters are made by (or for) a German company called Rutenbeck. Apart from some Chinese company I stumbled across who appear to make something similar, I'm not sure they have any competitors at the moment - so if they go bust tomorrow, I guess I'm on my own!

Hi...........I've been following this thread with interest as I went down the fibre route some 9-months ago. This was as a result of reading Andrews Everards post on his site and some very useful information on the Computer Audiophile forum.

For what was a relatively small outlay I'm delighted with the results and the addition of iFI - iPower plug top supplies, further cemented my opinion.

Changes like this are rarely "night and day" and this is no different. The improvement I've experienced is subtle and difficult to fully explain, but overall I just feel the sound is now less digital and more enjoyable. When I initially made the change I left it in place for a couple of weeks to settle and then removed the "fibre bridge" as I understand it's called. It quickly went back in and has stayed. 

In terms of cost v's benefit I think this is a winner and I would encourage you to give it a try.

Below is a picture of my set-up. I fixed the media converters to a granite place mat with good old Black Tack, which conveniently slides under my rack. The converters are connected to my 272 and the switch via Chord C-Stream.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Andrew Everhard would be a great name for a porn star.

Richard Everhard would be better though

Quite possibly. 

Flummoxed posted:

 

so, am i correct that you dont have a long fibre optic run? forgive my ignorance, but i am assuming the coilded cable is fibre?

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

Flummoxed posted:

 

so, am i correct that you dont have a long fibre optic run? forgive my ignorance, but i am assuming the coilded cable is fibre?

enjoy...

ken

The coiled cable is indeed the fibre, so this appears to be purely for the purpose of (partial) isolation of the streamer from any network-borne interference. I considered using these, but I'd have needed at least six, maybe ten of them, in addition to my existing network kit, and that's a hell of a lot of wall-warts. Also, I'd have to buy terminated cables rather than cutting them to length on site, and I'd have to drill bigger holes in the walls to fit the plugs through.

Still, it's interesting to hear that they can make a difference. When I've finished making other changes to my system, I'll have a further attempt at evaluating the changes/improvements that fibre has made to my system's sound. Even if there aren't any, it will have been worth it for me just for the ease of installation.

ken c posted:

Flummoxed posted:

 

so, am i correct that you dont have a long fibre optic run? forgive my ignorance, but i am assuming the coilded cable is fibre?

enjoy...

ken

Hi Ken......yes that's correct.

As I understand it the fibre optic bridge is just to provide isolation from electrical noise injected into the network by NAS drives and switches etc. 

Just for reference, but if you are wanting to connect say 8 devices via fibre, you can buy a 8 port fibre switch, then just use media converters at one end.

Something like...

Eloise, I did consider getting something like that, but the POF version is probably cheaper as well as being easier to instal. I only needed a 3 port switch, but the POF ones also come in 5 and 8 port versions. I'm sure this type of conventional fibre optic kit is also a realistic option as long as you can handle the cabling.

Sorry Chris ... 

ChrisSU posted:

Eloise, I did consider getting something like that, but the POF version is probably cheaper as well as being easier to instal.

Sorry ... I should have started with "You probably know this but..." ... was just commenting for reference as you said about multiple media converter pairs.  As you said the POF system looks to be more orientated to consumers and is cheaper / less complicated.