Hearing loss... "What?" I SAID...

I consider myself blessed,  I've turned the bend at 3 score & 10 & still hear 16kHz .............. now  ??  er  ??? what was I saying ? 

I am grateful for the balance control on my Naim pre-amps. Seems that standing to the left of a drum kit, for so many years, has somewhat damaged my right ear a bit.. 

I have the feeling that I am also not at 100 percent level anymore. Had an issue with firework close to my ear, was drummer and have visited quite some loud concerts. So far I haven't specifically done something about it.

I've convinced myself that standing next to the right hand PA stack when The Stranglers played The Roundhouse 1979 accounts for slight hearing loss in my right ear; certainly the loudest gig I've attended

I changed my health plan at work and just did the first 'baseline' of my hearing as I turned 40 (along with some other medical checks) more to see if things are a gradual change over time or a cliff drop.  I consider my hearing good, the results were still in the 'normal' range, but it was interesting to see a 10db drop in my right ear in comparison to the left after 4,000Hz.  One remediation I have taken as I always used my right ear for the phone is now switching to the left ear.

Well - so now you will have a cut of at 4 kHZ in both ears At least no need to worry about the upper harmonics. Just to put things in a perspective, what does 4 KHz mean in music:

* Snare drum attack is around 3.5 kHz for an average snare

* Bass guitar attack sits around 4 kHz

Time ago I went to the doctor with my wife, since she was thinking I had audition problems. After some tests the doctor said I had an incurable desease: I heard what I wanted to hear.

It was real, but joking apart, I'm 61 and I feel I'm hearing less. Doing some tests by myself using tracks in test LP's and CD's I hear sounds from about 16Hz up to 13-15 khz. I don't know if that is normal or not for my age.

I think I'm more sensible to bass than to high frecuencies, I actually prefer less bass than most of my acquantances.

Regards.  Erich

Hah Adam, well it's not a cut off, I can hear frequencies above 4000Hz (using a dog whistle app on the phone can still hear up to about 18000Hz), it's just at that point (the ears are lock step in frequency from 250Hz)  the left ear has 10db more sensitivity than the right ear. i.e at 4000Hz the left ear can hear a 5dB sound, where the right can't hear less than 15dB.

So putting that in context at 25db on the Puretone Audiometry scale is where they start stating normal hearing moves into mild deafness (30), Moderate (50) through to severe (80) and profound at 100,   And according to the audiologist it's the higher frequencies that start to go sooner the older we get.  It's just something I wasn't aware of until being tested.

Now we just need Jan Erik to give better info than I can :-)

http://www.roger-russell.com/hearing/hearing.htm#age

This is one of my greatest fears since even into my 30s I can hear well above the standard threshold for even young children. My last auditory exam hit the 20KHz mark (as high as the doctor's test went) which was nearly unheard for my age (no pun intended). In the past I have tested well above this much to everyone's amazement.

Then 3 months ago really terrible tinnitus set in as a loud hiss almost identical to when you crank an amp up on a dead input. Very noticable all the time.  It does make everything sound like it has been compressed for radio. Contrary to thinking about what upgrades may overcome this, it has been severe enough for me to put all upgrades on hold. My hope is that it is stress related but my fear is that a couple incidents where my 1 year old daughter screemed bloody murder 2cm from my ears may have robbed me of something. I joked to my wife that when the girl is 20 I'll give her all my doctor's bills related to this.

It is really frustrating though. If it is noise induced hearing loss, then cranking the volume is just a vicious cycle that will slowing make the problem worse so I don't consider that an option. Or I can simply accept the possibility that if this tinnitus is permanent, my hi-fi journey may be at an end. On the other hand, if it is stress induced, I only have to pause my enjoyment for the next 18 years until they go off to Uni'.

This hobby has often struck me as a paradox. The most enjoyment may come from being young (healthy bat ears) with fee time and a large disposable income. Yet those two things almost never go together. Once we have the cash to buy something decent we have incidents behind us  like screaming infants, concerts jammed up against a loundspeaker twice my height, general wear and tear, being stuck in traffic jams with roadworks where the workmen have ear guards but bugger all the poor sods stuck in the cars who have to listen for 3 hours etc.

After having adenoid infection at a very young age I have tinnitus in my left ear. Sometimes to a very noticable level and sometimes barely there to notice since then.

As a result of this tinnitus my left ear is not so sensitive to very high frequencies as my right. Although my left ear is more sensitive to very low frequencies to my right strangely enough. Must be a brain remapping phenomena - so maybe lucky tinnitus happened when I was younger and not older,  makes me concentrate on what I'm listening to more.

My research suggests that tinnitus problems may be completely resolved or become mild if you can lower your system's fasting insulin levels to 5 or idealy to 3. Easier said that done off course but worth to try. It may involve many different actions such as elininate sugar and refined carbohydrates, normalize your sleep patterns, eliminate "vegetable"  fats consumpion, increase natural fats consumption etc etc.

I'm 60 and have had tinnitus for many years, undoubtedly caused by shooting without hearing protection in my teens and twenties.  The high pitched whine in my left ear is pretty much constant and I occasionally get a much lower frequency hiss, like water running over stones. in my right ear.

I'm sure it has an effect on what frequencies I can hear but apart from an aversion to harsh noises it has not caused me any real problems and I have always been able to enjoy listening to music.   Unfortunately, the problem with harsh noises has been getting worse over the last couple of years and certain sounds can actually make me wince.

To be honest I can live with the occasional wince in normal day to day life but the negative effect that bright recordings, certain cymbal sounds, sibilant vocals etc have are beginning to affect my listening sessions and before long I'm going to have to address it.  This may well mean fundamental changes to my system but more on that when the time comes, in the meantime I'll lower the volume and try to be more selective on the tracks I listen to.  

charnik posted:

My research suggests that tinnitus problems may be completely resolved or become mild if you can lower your system's fasting insulin levels to 5 or idealy to 3. Easier said that done off course but worth to try. It may involve many different actions such as elininate sugar and refined carbohydrates, normalize your sleep patterns, eliminate "vegetable"  fats consumpion, increase natural fats consumption etc etc.

Interesting. The start of my tinnitus is also aligned with sudden weight gain due to a change is lifestyle (went from 2hr standing commutes and flying all over the far East to working from home at a desk job with zero business travel nearly overnight). The suggestions you made are in fact identical to the suggestions my physician has made for a couple other far more serious issues. Wonder if I can kill 3 birds with one stone.

For around 30 years I have had a high pitched tinnitus in my keft ear. My upper frequency hearing is very much diminished. All this primarily due to excessive volume from live concerts by Motorhead, AC/DC and the like. I am very sensitive to harsh or over bright sounds. What I have found, however, is that the better the system the more I can tokerate the bright sounds. Hence ef NDS is More tolerable than NDX and so on. I cannot stand the sound of a telephone call via an ordinary radio such as occurs on 5live - much too much distortion!

I find that I can hear higher frequencies, at lower volume, by cupping my hands to my ears or even just folding them slightly forward towards the sound source. Even placing a sound reflector behind my head helps.This is of course quite obvious though not very practical, but it does make me wonder how much the natural shape and size of ears affects an individual's hearing response and thus his assessment of a hifi system and changes/upgrades thereto. 

As has been referred to in historical threads, some form of equalisation in the system may well be helpful. This is of course availabke through jriver, and others no doubt, but not directky through a Naim system unless all the rips are reprocessed and saved as separate files, but this is not practicable and in any case different tracks may require different eq.

so the answer for me is to turn up the volume so that I do pick up the higher frequency nuances - and no doubt make my hearing even worse in the long term!

It really all ends up as you should do what works for you.  A high frequency loss as you get older is very common, maybe even normal and of course many of us have had heating damage due to exposure to loud noise or to illness or both. Tinnitus is usually associated with hearing loss, but everyone is different.

One of the things that makes it complicated to deal with hearing loss in an audiophile setting is that the two ears are often not the same and may be very different from each other.  Also a loss which affects all frequencies can be overlaid on a high frequency loss and that all-frequency loss is often accompanied by a reduction in dynamic range.  So although in theory you might think you could just turn up the volume by the requisite number of dB, in practice that is probably going to make the loud sounds much too loud and a lot of volume control adjusting as the music plays is inevitable!

And if the loss is other than mild, then you need the amplifiers and loudspeakers that can cope with operating at much higher power levels without degrading the sound. Also correcting the sound as you play doesn't work if there is another member of the household.

After years of living with a big hearing loss I concluded some time ago that hearing aids were the way to go, but you do need to have the right ones, they do need to have a music mode which is adjusted properly and you need an audiologist with the patience and understanding to keep adjusting things until they are as right as they can be. Good hearing aids are not cheap!

There was another thread about hearing aids and Naim recently...

best

David

Huge posted:

So, any comments, recommendations or observations?
By sharing experiences we may be able to help each other to better deal with this intractable problem.

I have loss of hearing on both ears, but until a few years ago the loss affected different frequencies on both ears so it wasn't much of a problem. Some of the loss are due to inflamed eardrums as a child and the rest is caused by a shoulder held cannon in my days of military service. To som extent it helps to pinch the nose and blow as you would do to equalize the pressure after flying as this increases the hearing in my right ear. I suspect the right eardrum is not as tight and flexible anymore. But it helps and then there's the balance control but it only helps to a certain extent.

It's interesting that you mention inky blackness etc. because tinnitus is usually treated with a sort of hearing aid which introduces "white noise" so as to take away the focus on the ringing noise.

I have no problems playing music quite loudly, and only occasionally do I notice the ringing sound afterwards. I suppose playing music takes away the focus on tinnitus related noise. I do however far more often go home with the dreaded ringing noise after work, but then stress can also cause tinnitus.

There was some major research on " Earworms" recently by the BBC and the Royal college of Something to do with doctors " , I bet my good ear that those who are more prone to having Earworms are also people with tinnitus. I'm sure having a constant noise in the head that would other wise make  some one go crazy has been appropriated by some thing musical.

Erich posted:

http://www.roger-russell.com/hearing/hearing.htm#age

An interesting read Erich

Hi Huge,

Hello tinnitus, goodbye silence. T sneerfully resists attempts at being beaten into submission, preferring to commandeer your conciousness, pissing in its pool with twin 7800 Hz sawtooth cicadas. One over each ear and not even buzzing in unison ; how uncouth. Best option is to offer some healthy competition that diverts attention elsewhere. Woodworking does it for me. As do the LS5/9s. 

Whether its best to focus on source, amp, or speakers, I don't think it matters as long as the result is better resolution. And there's always more of that to be had.

Jan

PS. If the tinnitus is related to high frequency hearing loss, hearing aids that amplify some of the highs can help reduce the ringing. Discuss with a specialized audiologist. 

Natural sounds rich in high frequencies, such as rainfall, can also calm ringing in this type of tinnitus.

Hi Jan,

Yes those cicadas are most uncouth, and playing such a boring tune!  However I've become quite adept at ignoring them and carrying on anyway.  The only time I have any difficulty with that, is when they change volume (so far they've kept constant pitch).

The worst problem is that even before the tinnitus, when someone spoke to me I wouldn't know what they'd said unless I was specifically expecting to be spoken to.  This is because of they type of dyslexia I have: I normally don't think using language (I tend to think symbolically using 3D patterns), so to listen to someone I have to change how I think before they speak to me.  Occasionally now I don't even realise that someone's actually spoken to me, particularly when I'm in a crowded room - most of my friends know this (even if they sometimes forget!) but it's disconcerting for strangers, who assume I'm ignoring them.

I'm about to install a pre-amp power supply on the Nait XS and upgrade the interconnect, so we'll see how that works out.

H

P.S.  I have some spot on flea treatment for the cats, will that also kill cicadas?         (DO NOT try this at home!)

Huge posted:

P.S.  I have some spot on flea treatment for the cats, will that also kill cicadas?         (DO NOT try this at home!)

OK, one less thing to try then. I did try sound cancellation using a frequency generator, same waveform and frequency but shifted 180 degrees. It worked temporarily, as do most sound generators, because of residual inhibition (lasts a minute or two). The weirdest thing is that sound returned in the form of a low frequency bubbling, that slowly reorganized into the cicadas. Tough blighters to stun.

Jan, interesting, that seems to support the hypothesis that tinnitus can be an adaptive response to loss of high frequencies, so the brain adapts to the lower response and the low level random(ish!) firing of nerves becomes a relatively significant signal.

If the cicadas are just over the ears, I have a sure-fire way to ensure at least temporary silence for the victim sufferer:  Take a baseball bat and swing it at the cicada; N.B. the baseball bat must be swung fast enough for the cicada to not be able to get out of the way before the baseball bat impacts.  I'm absolutely sure that the victim patient won't hear the cicadas for a period of time.  Unfortunately if the velocity required to get the cicada is too high, this particular treatment may be a permanent cure, in which case it's unlikely that the success will be reported by the  victim patient themselves.  

Thanks, but I'm terrible at sports. I was thinking more along the lines of drilling holes in the tub and installing air jets. Air and water, just the thing to saturate the brain with high-frequencies. The tinnitus bathtub : A spa for your ears.