A speaker question, if I may.

nigelb posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Mike-B posted:

The x2 downsides - WAF was negative, they are ugly with & without the grills,  grills (perforated metal sheet) look industrial,  the cabinets don't look nice like "ours" & they are the wrong wood.   

Mike - that sounds very familiar. Your wife and mine must be related 

Ah yes, the dreaded WAF, the downfall of many a great potential system. But we have to 'live' with our systems as well as listen to them I guess.

I know the pain - I had to call off an extended demo of Ovators S-600 as soon as my wife realised how 'ugly and wrong wood and not-in-piano-black' they are.... But let's not complain too much - I think we are still allowed to get away with quite a lot in the name of beautiful music.

As it happens I'm quite impressed that she noticed the ATC cherry was different to our ash & elm.   Not just the colour, she was most concerned with the grain.   Seems my love of wood & its variations has not gone un-noticed

Adam Zielinski posted:

nigelb posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Mike-B posted:

The x2 downsides - WAF was negative, they are ugly with & without the grills,  grills (perforated metal sheet) look industrial,  the cabinets don't look nice like "ours" & they are the wrong wood.   

Mike - that sounds very familiar. Your wife and mine must be related 

Ah yes, the dreaded WAF, the downfall of many a great potential system. But we have to 'live' with our systems as well as listen to them I guess.

I know the pain - I had to call off an extended demo of Ovators S-600 as soon as my wife realised how 'ugly and wrong wood and not-in-piano-black' they are.... But let's not complain too much - I think we are still allowed to get away with quite a lot in the name of beautiful music.

Yes, and it is not as if you can sneak in a pair of Ovator S-600s unnoticed!

Good try though Adam. 

nigelb posted:

Ah, yes Mike, I missed the 'A' in the model number. Even better then, you don't need a power amp.

I do agree with the comments about the importance of the preamp in passive systems and I imagine the same would be true of active systems, possibly more so. The preamp has always been at the centre of my system and has been the prominent component in all my previous upgrade plans. I believe the pre is fundamental to any system's music-making capabilities and have heard some of the biggest and best improvements when upgrading the pre. Also key of course is the source and you have a fine one in the NDX.

So if it were me (and assuming the SMC19A's are as capable as many say they are) I would be investing next in the best pre you can afford, say the 252 to go with the SMC's if you decide to try them out. Trouble is you will then be wanting a NDS to make the most of the 252 but that can wait.

.

However, if the source is digital only, then use of DAC with volume control removes rhe need for a pre-amp entirely, one less item to affect signal (and if using active speakers the Naim recommendation to not use their power amps without a Naim pre disappears, allowing the removal of that component.

I understand some have used a DAC (Chord for example like yourself) without a pre amp but I have not heard of many reports of real sonic advantages of dispensing with a pre. Out of interest, have you compared your system with and without a preamp? I have no evidence either way other than the benefits to SQ I have heard as I have improved my preamp.

For me, one of the main downsides of separates is the compromise brought about by the leads required to connect them together rather than the individual component itself. Each component in the chain is there for a reason and does something to the signal, be it digital or analogue. The connecting leads however should, in my opinion, do nothing to the signal other than convey it from one point in the system to another. But we know ALL cables and connecting leads affect the signal they convey, many adversely.

Another way of dispensing with (some) connecting leads is to combine more that one component into a single box - e.g. the 272. Here I think there is some real mileage if ways can be found for the components housed together in the same box to generate, transmit and induce less noise - the key benefit of separates in my view.

Hi Folks, as one poster has surmised, I did have an active system, and a room which coped nicely.

It has to be said that the discussion of ATC speakers is catching my attention and could be an avenue to consider; the inclusion of amps in the speakers means the potential for more funds towards the preamp.....  Tell me this, assuming ATC SCM 50ASL speakers, and accepting I have read the connections guide correctly, Am I right in thinking that all that's needed between the preamp PS and the speakers are appropriately terminated SNAICS?

A question I have re the post above, assuming a Naim digital source and a DAC with volume control, and given the proposed omission of both the Naim pre and power amps, to what degree would the resulting musical presentation still be "Naim" in nature?

My own comparison was only with and without TAG McLaren PA19 preamp, when an improvement without it. It will of course depend on the power amp and specific DAC, and as usual listening is the best way to decide.

However, subject to that compatability it is generally accepted that the less electronics in the signal path the better, and any superfluous individual component at best is a superfluous capital investment, and could be detrimental. So unless the electronics is doing something material - e.g impedance matching, source switching, amplifying (most preamps are actually doing the opposite with digital sources, attenuating, so the amplification stages are superfluous), modifying (e.g applying equalisatio, filtering ultrasonics etc) - it would be expected to be better without. It has been suggested that Naim preamps do,something to the signal to emphasise PRaT, so if that is the key goal removal of the preamp may be detrimental.

DGL,

Between a Naim pre and ATC speakers you'll need an Interconnect that goes DIN --> XLR. The XLR end has two leads, one obviously for each speaker. Here I would look to the Chord family of cables or SL. 

BTW, ATC are likely to refresh their Classic Series here shortly (w/ new ATC designed and built tweeter) - could result in some good deals for the previous iteration.

Regards,

Aric

Drumgooland posted:

Hi Folks, as one poster has surmised, I did have an active system, and a room which coped nicely.

It has to be said that the discussion of ATC speakers is catching my attention and could be an avenue to consider; the inclusion of amps in the speakers means the potential for more funds towards the preamp.....  Tell me this, assuming ATC SCM 50ASL speakers, and accepting I have read the connections guide correctly, Am I right in thinking that all that's needed between the preamp PS and the speakers are appropriately terminated SNAICS?

A question I have re the post above, assuming a Naim digital source and a DAC with volume control, and given the proposed omission of both the Naim pre and power amps, to what degree would the resulting musical presentation still be "Naim" in nature?

 

If the Naim sound is due to emphasis of some aspects of the signal in their passage through Naim preamps, then, yes, removing the preamp will alter the sound, negatively for those that like the emphasis. That would apply whether a Naim or other digital source.

Aric posted:

DGL,

Between a Naim pre and ATC speakers you'll need an Interconnect that goes DIN --> XLR. The XLR end has two leads, one obviously for each speaker. Here I would look to the Chord family of cables or SL. 

BTW, ATC are likely to refresh their Classic Series here shortly (w/ new ATC designed and built tweeter) - could result in some good deals for the previous iteration.

Regards,

Aric

I use a Hugo DAC, which require Phono-XLR, however if I were buying now I'd get the Hugo TT, which additionally has balanced XLR outputs - which if source components are positioned some distance from the speakers are perfect for the longer signal path to the power amps in active speakers from ATC and, I believe, PMC, or for power amps positioned beside the speakers if they have balanced inputs.

If going the ATC route with Naim, one should assume as necessary a Naim Pre. Naim source into pre works fabulously with ATC actives as many on here can relate. I also think Chord compliments this arrangement very well.

Adam Zielinski posted:

There have been many comparisons, but I would say N272 is not an NDX+282. It's a different, more convenient 'product'. NAIM markets it as a proposition for someone moving from a SuperUniti, not as an alternative to separates.

Absolutely Adam.  I guess it is an alternative to the NDX/282 but only as the ND5XS/Nait XS is to the Unitiqute.

Neat MF 7's would be perfect for you and your system Sir 

ART Alnico 8.3 signature speakers.  These are really rare and also really rather good (yes, I have a pair too).  I have yet to hear a pair of new speakers for under £10k that comes close - even after 6 years of auditioning...

Best regards, FT

Moderated Post:  FT, I've edited your post to ensure it complies with forum rules.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

yes i haven't heard the 19a, but I think I do prefer the 19s over the 40s - certainly passively - the large domed pro mid/bass driver on the 19 really is rather special and very performant over that crucial mid range.

Indeed, the 40 also has something rather special, that 75mm dedicated mid driver that atc are renowned for. The tweeter is the same as 19. Both the 40 mid and bass drivers are also used in the ATC pro range in the SCM25A that is very popular in pro recording studios.

After a week or so use I found the 40 bottom end a touch too much for my modest and difficult room so I'm currently waiting for a pair of replacement 19 actives that I'm hoping will be a better match.

Plenty of food for thought here. My suggestion would be the new ProAc D48, either with or without the ribbon tweeter. Works very well with Naim amplification and offers the bass slam you're craving.

Good luck!

Drumgooland posted:

A question I have re the post above, assuming a Naim digital source and a DAC with volume control, and given the proposed omission of both the Naim pre and power amps, to what degree would the resulting musical presentation still be "Naim" in nature?

 

if you intend to omit naim pre and power then there will be little, if any, naim presentation. the dac with volume control will be key to the presentation. i use hugo tt and find the presentation accurate and transparent, adding nothing and taking nothing away. exciting when the music is exciting, relaxed when the music is relaxed. bass has slam and presence when the track has bass slam and presence.

Halloween Man posted:

Indeed, the 40 also has something rather special, that 75mm dedicated mid driver that atc are renowned for. The tweeter is the same as 19. Both the 40 mid and bass drivers are also used in the ATC pro range in the SCM25A that is very popular in pro recording studios.

 

HM,

Have you compared the Pro vs. HiFi range previously with Naim kit? I'm quite tempted with the SCM20ASL Pro, especially since it is half the price of the new 19A here in the States 

The 20ASL Pro also has the ATC tweeter - "S" variant, which from what I've read is a clear step up from the base ATC tweeter. Both horizontal and vertical off axis response measure the same as the 19A. So I can't see how the 20ASL Pro would suffer in more traditional home acoustical settings vs. the HiFi range. And the 20 also appears to have a more powerful amp pack. 

In fact, the only improvement - subjectively - that the 19A seems to offer over the 20ASL Pro is a nicer wood cabinet. But at twice the cost, I can live with the looks. Something just isn't adding up here with the cost? Maybe one of those rare bargains?

Aric

Hi Aric, no never heard pro range. The 20asl does seem a bargain, even more so when you factor in the upgraded tweeter and quality of the pro cabinet. I'm sure they will shine for home use, check with atc that they are suitable for your room and listening distance and what speaker stands they recommend. You may be interested to know uk whathifi recently did a review of these very speakers and also considered them a bargain! Make sure they are the mkii version.

Halloween Man posted:

Drumgooland posted:

A question I have re the post above, assuming a Naim digital source and a DAC with volume control, and given the proposed omission of both the Naim pre and power amps, to what degree would the resulting musical presentation still be "Naim" in nature?

 

if you intend to omit naim pre and power then there will be little, if any, naim presentation. the dac with volume control will be key to the presentation. i use hugo tt and find the presentation accurate and transparent, adding nothing and taking nothing away. exciting when the music is exciting, relaxed when the music is relaxed. bass has slam and presence when the track has bass slam and presence.

+1

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

yes i haven't heard the 19a, but I think I do prefer the 19s over the 40s - certainly passively - the large domed pro mid/bass driver on the 19 really is rather special and very performant over that crucial mid range.

Mrs NewNaim16 and myself both agree with this - at least when driven by a 272/250DR combination, which is how we heard them. 

Thanks for the replies so far. I am building a nice list of options to consider and audition when I am ready.