DAC-V1 vs. Hugo

SongStream post

 

Your gripes remind of my own feelings though.  I've never heard a Hugo, and even though people love it, and it clearly punches above its weight, fact is, its not the product I want.  I do not require a portable DAC, I do not require a headphone amp, I don't want something that runs on batteries which will inevitably deteriorate, dodgy sockets, lightweight, flappy-about-thing.  How great it sounds, is not what's in question, though I have never heard one, but it's just not the product I want.                

 

X2

Songstream, your comments pretty much echo my feelings about the Hugo after these 2 days of listening. I am using both over USB so that might explain why I don't in general find much difference between both DACs.. The DSD alone is hard for me to justify, I only have 2 dozen DSD albums and thousands of FLAC albums.... I like the way the Hugo sounds, but I also find myself wondering if this is something that is going to replace the DAC-V1.

What is with the input voltage and Naim preamps? I was not aware to any output voltage affinity with Naim pre-amps?

+1 Songstream

I have heard a Hugo, though not in ideal circumstances and not in a direct comparison with anything I know well. I would say it sounded great - very natural and smooth, not unlike high-quality vinyl in some ways. I also think people brought up on vinyl might like it best for that reason, which is fair enough.

But I don't want one. I have no desire to get one at all. I would happily spend money on, say, a 272 instead of my 172, but not a Hugo. I just don't like it as a 'thing': the way it looks, feels, connects, the batteries, the lights, the anything. 

When I realised I didn't want one irrespective of sound quality, I realised that sound quality wasn't my highest priority. My hifi has to sound good, but it has to feel right too. It's all in the eye of the beholder, obvs.

thijazi posted:

Songstream, your comments pretty much echo my feelings about the Hugo after these 2 days of listening. I am using both over USB so that might explain why I don't in general find much difference between both DACs.. The DSD alone is hard for me to justify, I only have 2 dozen DSD albums and thousands of FLAC albums.... I like the way the Hugo sounds, but I also find myself wondering if this is something that is going to replace the DAC-V1.

What is with the input voltage and Naim preamps? I was not aware to any output voltage affinity with Naim pre-amps?

I believe 2.1V RMS at 1 kHz is standard, and from memory the 2qute is 3v equivalent.  Not really sure how big of a deal that is, but is something that bothers me, basically it's louder I suppose.  In theory with Hugo being adjustable, I guess you should be able to achieve 2.1V, which is perhaps why this turquoise volume setting seems to be critical.  Again, stuff I just can't be bothered with in my own system.  

Mayor West posted:

Songstream, I was of the same mindset which is why I tried the 2Qute first but ended up settling for the Hugo due to me preferring the sound of the Hugo, like GraemeH above. After trying the Hugo, despite me not needing portability, a headphone amp, battery power supplies or a flimsy little silver box... I was sold on sound quality alone. It took my system to the next level and beyond. Things may be different for yourself I'm sure but thought it may be worth mentioning in response to your post :-)

Me too, when my dealer showed me this small gimmicky box with odd "disco" lighting effects, I was somewhat disappointed. BUT after actually listening to the hugo, well that didn't matter at all.

For me sound quality is priority above all else.

Mayor West posted:

Songstream, I was of the same mindset which is why I tried the 2Qute first but ended up settling for the Hugo due to me preferring the sound of the Hugo, like GraemeH above. After trying the Hugo, despite me not needing portability, a headphone amp, battery power supplies or a flimsy little silver box... I was sold on sound quality alone. It took my system to the next level and beyond. Things may be different for yourself I'm sure but thought it may be worth mentioning in response to your post :-)

I understand.  Thing for me is, I went from an aging and little above entry level system (by Naim standards (excluding Muso)) to DAC-V1, SN2, Proac D18.  Fact is, the system blows me away regularly a year later, so I am in no hurry to change anything.  I love it, simple as.  I would only disrupt it for the right product, and right in every respect.  

And that is why I patiently wait for an nDAC2 or DAC-V2........ Is anyone at Naim listening??? For god's sake, a hint would be useful

Solid Air posted:

+1 Songstream

I have heard a Hugo, though not in ideal circumstances and not in a direct comparison with anything I know well. I would say it sounded great - very natural and smooth, not unlike high-quality vinyl in some ways. I also think people brought up on vinyl might like it best for that reason, which is fair enough.

But I don't want one. I have no desire to get one at all. I would happily spend money on, say, a 272 instead of my 172, but not a Hugo. I just don't like it as a 'thing': the way it looks, feels, connects, the batteries, the lights, the anything. 

When I realised I didn't want one irrespective of sound quality, I realised that sound quality wasn't my highest priority. My hifi has to sound good, but it has to feel right too. It's all in the eye of the beholder, obvs.

That is a honest response and a valid point of view!

SongStream posted:

Mayor West posted:

Songstream, I was of the same mindset which is why I tried the 2Qute first but ended up settling for the Hugo due to me preferring the sound of the Hugo, like GraemeH above. After trying the Hugo, despite me not needing portability, a headphone amp, battery power supplies or a flimsy little silver box... I was sold on sound quality alone. It took my system to the next level and beyond. Things may be different for yourself I'm sure but thought it may be worth mentioning in response to your post :-)

I understand.  Thing for me is, I went from an aging and little above entry level system (by Naim standards (excluding Muso)) to DAC-V1, SN2, Proac D18.  Fact is, the system blows me away regularly a year later, so I am in no hurry to change anything.  I love it, simple as.  I would only disrupt it for the right product, and right in every respect.  

Having no itch to scratch is the best place to be! It's a joy to regularly blown away. I only scratched because I had the itch with the Hugo, but pleasingly I'm now in the same place as you :-)

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Me 2

thijazi posted:

And that is why I patiently wait for an nDAC2 or DAC-V2........ Is anyone at Naim listening??? For god's sake, a hint would be useful

Here's a hint: every year DACs get better and price/unit of quality goes down.  Soon perfect DACs will be available for next to no cost.

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Kevin Richardson posted:

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Simple. Make a new streamer with no onboard DAC.

cat345 posted:

Solid Air posted:

+1 Songstream

I have heard a Hugo, though not in ideal circumstances and not in a direct comparison with anything I know well. I would say it sounded great - very natural and smooth, not unlike high-quality vinyl in some ways. I also think people brought up on vinyl might like it best for that reason, which is fair enough.

But I don't want one. I have no desire to get one at all. I would happily spend money on, say, a 272 instead of my 172, but not a Hugo. I just don't like it as a 'thing': the way it looks, feels, connects, the batteries, the lights, the anything. 

When I realised I didn't want one irrespective of sound quality, I realised that sound quality wasn't my highest priority. My hifi has to sound good, but it has to feel right too. It's all in the eye of the beholder, obvs.

That is a honest response and a valid point of view!

That was my thought as well... For me it's the opposite.. The feel is irrelevant, but I totally get it for those who have other priorities than just  SQ.. and yes I enjoy my Hugo, and it gets its Fraim shelf on top of my Fraim stack. But it's probably fair to say my audio equipment looks like it belongs to a music enthusiast as opposed to a neat coordinated lifestyle product.

PS to the earlier point on Hugo powersupply lack of upgradability... It really is moot.. the way the Hugo is designed it makes no difference .. Connect or disconnect the powersupply and within an immersive listening session there is no discernible difference...if I am honest I find this approach quite refreshing...albeit unNaim-like

Simon

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Simple. Make a new streamer with no onboard DAC.

Chris, didn't get that.. The current Naim streamers can already be switched to transport mode (which switches the streamer resources to enable the precision clocked and driven SPDIF stage and disable the internal DAC stage ). I guess Naim believe correctly terminated and well driven SPDIF produces less interference than asynchronous audio USB. Certainly technically I can seen why that would be the case... There are some aspects of USB isochronous transmission and handshaking that I find far from ideal for a low electrical noise environment. 

Simon

Another leveller could be galvanic isolation on the v1, Hugo does not have this and noise from the computer/grounds via usb cable could reduce sound quality. Hence my recommendation for optical cable for Hugo to pc. You could add an olimex usb-iso that will help matters. 2qute has galvanic isolation built in so maybe better solution for usb.

Yes galvanic isolation stops ground loops and impedes relatively low frequency noise with reference to the ground plane... But that is not the isochronous USB noise I am referring to, and yes I believe the lack of such isolation on the USB input is a shame for such a great product.. However it is best for galvanic isolation to be done once only, either by sender or receiver. From some accounts the Hugo works well with USB when the sender uses galvanic isolation. 

FWIW, I felt that Hugo sounds better via USB than 2Qute despite 2Qute having galvanic isolation. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

That was my thought as well... For me it's the opposite.. The feel is irrelevant, but I totally get it for those who have other priorities than just  SQ.. and yes I enjoy my Hugo, and it gets its Fraim shelf on top of my Fraim stack. But it's probably fair to say my audio equipment looks like it belongs to a music enthusiast as opposed to a neat coordinated lifestyle product.

PS to the earlier point on Hugo powersupply lack of upgradability... It really is moot.. the way the Hugo is designed it makes no difference .. Connect or disconnect the powersupply and within an immersive listening session there is no discernible difference...if I am honest I find this approach quite refreshing...albeit unNaim-like

Simon

 

+1 for me, I love how my Hugo sounds. I find this approach also quite refreshing.

Chord have released an amp for the Hugo TT, simple one box solution. But need to hear how it sounds.

I find Chord DAC + Naim preamp/NaimPSU/Naim regulated poweramp to be very musical to my ears.

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Simple. Make a new streamer with no onboard DAC.

The main point that a high end Naim DAC with USB input doesn't seem to fit into their  worldview.

ndac was good when introduced, i had one of the first at the dealers, but that seems in the past in technology  . since the hugo ive really forgotten about dacs. and the cost of really good dacs as come down. ndx/hugo/qnap 205 fitted with the bug sounds great and never failed at all, the android app. for the streamer now is good. plain sailing

Kevin Richardson posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Simple. Make a new streamer with no onboard DAC.

The main point that a high end Naim DAC with USB input doesn't seem to fit into their  worldview.

I think you'll find that's why we, certainly I, keep banging on about it.  Perhaps there is the vaguest chance we could get such a feature into their worldview.  They did a great job with the USB option on the V1, I see no reason why they would not include the option on the nDAC should their be a major revision.  However, like you have said, I get the feeling that USB is not considered relevant to the higher-end range.  Needless to say, I disagree.  In fact I purchased the V1 purely because I wanted a USB DAC as a permanent feature in a main system.  Had Naim not made a product to provide that, I suspect they would be a sale down on their Supernait2 figures as well, since one purchase led to other, and was not part of any plan at the outset.  

SongStream posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

thijazi posted:

I would definitely invest in an nDAC2 with USB

Why would Naim create an nDAC2 with usb input?  How are they going to make money if people don't buy their streamers to feed the new DAC?

Simple. Make a new streamer with no onboard DAC.

The main point that a high end Naim DAC with USB input doesn't seem to fit into their  worldview.

I think you'll find that's why we, certainly I, keep banging on about it.  Perhaps there is the vaguest chance we could get such a feature into their worldview.  They did a great job with the USB option on the V1, I see no reason why they would not include the option on the nDAC should their be a major revision.  However, like you have said, I get the feeling that USB is not considered relevant to the higher-end range.  Needless to say, I disagree.  In fact I purchased the V1 purely because I wanted a USB DAC as a permanent feature in a main system.  Had Naim not made a product to provide that, I suspect they would be a sale down on their Supernait2 figures as well, since one purchase led to other, and was not part of any plan at the outset.  

Perhaps the 'DAC' needs to be designed in such a way that the inputs (i.e. SPDIF, USB, etc) are isolated from the DAC itself (So, one 'box' for a streamer with USB and UPNP and another for the DAC' - just take a look at the NDS).

There are 'high end' DACs that use USB and 'high end' server that cater for USB (for example, Aurender).

Jude

I'm posting to agree with those who want NAIM to drop a hint about future DAC plans. The V1, and to a lesser extent, the nDac, are both dinosaurs. They cost too much relative to the performance of better and cheaper competition. 

My wish list would be...

1. Update the nDac to the latest and greatest.
2. Stuff it into a box the size of V1.
3. Permit an external PSU upgrade.
4. Remove the Pre- / HP pre-amp. DAC only.
5. USB input / galvanic isolation, etc. is a must.

After months of listening to these DACs in my stereo system, my preferences were;

Most classical music - Hugo

almost everything else in PCM - DAC V1 in fixed output mode

 piano reproduction - Teac UD-501 up-sampled to 2xDSD

Edit:   NAIM should take a look at the TEAC implementation, as something about its playback came off as  even more 'NAIM like' than their own DAC (cohesion & flow, if that makes sense)