NAP 250DR vs. 300DR: How much better?

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

I have not auditioned the 300-DR with your speakers (very nice) but I can say without hesitation with my PMC 20-26 the 300-DR really brings them to life! in a wonderfully controlled and articulate way that the 250-DR is unable to match, I would think the same rule would apply with those lovely speakers of yours.

Having said all of this I see you are running a 272 do you have a separate P/S for it?, if not I would say I would add an XPS-DR or 555PS to the 272 first and then think about the 300-DR upgrade, thats the route I have taken, adding the external P/S to your 272 will make a significant improvement. Hope that helps.

ATB.

Interesting isn't it. The overall view is that the 300DR is much better but then hyperbole sets in and out come come the same gushing comments. At least no one said that after upgrading to a 300DR they felt the 250DR sounded broken  

The thing with all upgrades is they can set you off on a more expensive path. As members may know, I've pondered a speaker change (though in a small flat, and with ideas of moving to a big place in the country swiftly moving further away, a change up to something more capable is looking increasingly unlikely) and a preamp change on other threads. And like this thread, one theme that seems consistent is that when you have a system that is nicely balanced end-to-end (which I think mine is), dropping 7K on any one part can put things way out of whack. A 300DR, may bring into question whether other bits like the source are up to it. Though my feeling that an NDX/XPSdr is still more than a suitable partner in that scenario, that, or the speakers may niggle at the back of my mind and the said change of a power amp could be the start of a journey that sees everything in the system change over a couple years.

You always need to be careful about these things. Just because you have 7K now doesn't mean you will then have 14K soon after for an NDS and a pair of Fact8s (for example). And if I did, well, there's always other things to use it on - the balance on the mortgage being a good candidate.

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

Mine was an in-store demo and I had a couple of hours listening to a 300DR into Sopra 2s using a system I know well and music I'm very familiar with.  A friend I took alone, unfamiliar with Naim gear, who independently offered the view that the 300DR produced a much bigger improvement than the 250DR over the 250.2.  

I listened to quite a lengthy demo of 250DR vs 300DR into Sopra 2s (with a NDX/XPS/282/Supercap front end) at a dealer a few months ago. Yes, the 300DR was superior with greater grip and control but the 250DR was more than capable of driving the Sopra 2s and was not embarrassed by the 300DR. In fact I would have been quite happy with the 250DR and felt the greater limiting factor was the source and possibly the pre amp. I have owned and upgraded from both the NDX and 282 and I could clearly hear their sonic signature in the demo. Not at all bad, but a limiting factor in my view.

So in conclusion I too would echo others here and improve the front end before upgrading the power amp. The addition of an XPS to your 272 would seem to be the logical first step.

It's what a number of us have been saying for a good while now: 272/XPSDR/250DR is going to be better than 272/300DR. 

Of course a 300 is better than a 250, just as a 500 is better than a 300, and Statement is better than a 500. But it's got to stop somewhere.

nigelb posted:

I listened to quite a lengthy demo of 250DR vs 300DR into Sopra 2s (with a NDX/XPS/282/Supercap front end) at a dealer a few months ago. Yes, the 300DR was superior with greater grip and control but the 250DR was more than capable of driving the Sopra 2s and was not embarrassed by the 300DR. In fact I would have been quite happy with the 250DR and felt the greater limiting factor was the source and possibly the pre amp. I have owned and upgraded from both the NDX and 282 and I could clearly hear their sonic signature in the demo. Not at all bad, but a limiting factor in my view.

So in conclusion I too would echo others here and improve the front end before upgrading the power amp. The addition of an XPS to your 272 would seem to be the logical first step.

Not sure I follow Nigel. You found an NDX/XPSdr/282 limiting factors on a 300dr but advise that a 272 can be suitable where the previous wasn't with an XPSdr?

feeling_zen posted:

nigelb posted:

I listened to quite a lengthy demo of 250DR vs 300DR into Sopra 2s (with a NDX/XPS/282/Supercap front end) at a dealer a few months ago. Yes, the 300DR was superior with greater grip and control but the 250DR was more than capable of driving the Sopra 2s and was not embarrassed by the 300DR. In fact I would have been quite happy with the 250DR and felt the greater limiting factor was the source and possibly the pre amp. I have owned and upgraded from both the NDX and 282 and I could clearly hear their sonic signature in the demo. Not at all bad, but a limiting factor in my view.

So in conclusion I too would echo others here and improve the front end before upgrading the power amp. The addition of an XPS to your 272 would seem to be the logical first step.

Not sure I follow Nigel. You found an NDX/XPSdr/282 limiting factors on a 300dr but advise that a 272 can be suitable where the previous wasn't with an XPSdr?

I am simply saying money would be better spent on the front end as I see this as more of a priority than the power amp. As the OP has a bare 272 and many on here have said it is greatly improved by the addition of the XPSDR, I would suggest this first. A 272 will always have its limitations but can't really be significantly improved upon until you replace with a large ticket separate source + PS and pre amp + PS IMHO so I was not about to suggest that.

The demo I heard had separate power supplies on both the streamer and pre amp and I would suggest the OP's 272 is crying out for a power supply as he already has a great power amp. Hope this is a little clearer.

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

Virtually everyone is suggesting you get an XPS, not a 300. I'm struggling to see what justifies your hunch that you need a 300.

nigelb posted:

I listened to quite a lengthy demo of 250DR vs 300DR into Sopra 2s (with a NDX/XPS/282/Supercap front end) at a dealer a few months ago. Yes, the 300DR was superior with greater grip and control but the 250DR was more than capable of driving the Sopra 2s and was not embarrassed by the 300DR. In fact I would have been quite happy with the 250DR and felt the greater limiting factor was the source and possibly the pre amp. I have owned and upgraded from both the NDX and 282 and I could clearly hear their sonic signature in the demo. Not at all bad, but a limiting factor in my view.

So in conclusion I too would echo others here and improve the front end before upgrading the power amp. The addition of an XPS to your 272 would seem to be the logical first step.

Very interesting 

if you had to choose one would you keep the Nds or the 252/Scdr ?

compared to NDX and 282

Rob T posted:

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

I have not auditioned the 300-DR with your speakers (very nice) but I can say without hesitation with my PMC 20-26 the 300-DR really brings them to life! in a wonderfully controlled and articulate way that the 250-DR is unable to match, I would think the same rule would apply with those lovely speakers of yours.

Having said all of this I see you are running a 272 do you have a separate P/S for it?, if not I would say I would add an XPS-DR or 555PS to the 272 first and then think about the 300-DR upgrade, thats the route I have taken, adding the external P/S to your 272 will make a significant improvement. Hope that helps.

ATB.

So you say buying a 555ps would be a better investment than a 300dr? I don't have first hand experience of the combination of components in question but you're looking at about a £1200 difference in the cost. Surely adding the better power amp with its own separate power supply is going to be better value for money, would probably give better results and realistically would put an end to any itch to upgrade. 

My approach is to buy the best source and power amp I can and then add power supplies as future upgrades. 

MDS posted:

Mine was an in-store demo and I had a couple of hours listening to a 300DR into Sopra 2s using a system I know well and music I'm very familiar with.  A friend I took alone, unfamiliar with Naim gear, who independently offered the view that the 300DR produced a much bigger improvement than the 250DR over the 250.2.  

Not having the familiarity, or ownership of the aforementioned gear, it sounds about right.

Once upon a time, Naim used to suggest systems that incorporated balance, but someone must have figured that could affect sales. Hence, no more!

But when speaking Balance, it goes without saying that the 500 is the perfect match for Naim's top Pre Amp.

That being said, Naim's Audio Control (NAC) the 552 would have no problem controlling and maximizing all that the 300DR has to offer.

In Fact, the 252, may be up to the task.

But not sure about the 282, Naim's third tier pre amp.

That being said, I would imagine the 272, paired with a 300DR, may not be a perfect match.

Perhaps someone with more experience, could comment on my perspective!

Allante93!

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

Yes - spent a whole afternoon.  To these ears the 300dr offers a better performance over the 250dr but nothing like the old 300 offered over the old 250.  But all imo etc!!

Allante93 posted:

MDS posted:

Mine was an in-store demo and I had a couple of hours listening to a 300DR into Sopra 2s using a system I know well and music I'm very familiar with.  A friend I took alone, unfamiliar with Naim gear, who independently offered the view that the 300DR produced a much bigger improvement than the 250DR over the 250.2.  

Not having the familiarity, or ownership of the aforementioned gear, it sounds about right.

Once upon a time, Naim used to suggest systems that incorporated balance, but someone must have figured that could affect sales. Hence, no more!

But when speaking Balance, it goes without saying that the 500 is the perfect match for Naim's top Pre Amp.

That being said, Naim's Audio Control (NAC) the 552 would have no problem controlling and maximizing all that the 300DR has to offer.

In Fact, the 252, may be up to the task.

But not sure about the 282, Naim's third tier pre amp.

That being said, I would imagine the 272, paired with a 300DR, may not be a perfect match.

Perhaps someone with more experience, could comment on my perspective!

Allante93!

When I demo'ed the 250DR and 300DR against my 250.2 it was on my four-box CD player and 282/SCDR.  The merits of the 300DR were very apparent through the 282.  My dealer and I agreed both the source and 282/SCDR were comfortably good enough to justify upgrading the amp to a 300DR.  Initially  we both had doubts about whether the source and pre-amp were up to it, but the in-store and long home demos dispelled those doubts emphatically.  In my view a 282/SCDR/300DR is an excellent combination and I would heartily recommend it to anyone who is prepared to spend that sort of money. 

All that said, given the OP's position, I think I would prioritise investment in the front end before thinking about replacing the 250DR.

Mike

The Strat (Fender) posted:

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

Yes - spent a whole afternoon.  To these ears the 300dr offers a better performance over the 250dr but nothing like the old 300 offered over the old 250.  But all imo etc!!

Strat - I wonder whether impression of the 300DR over the 250DR was accentuated by hearing it with the SL full loom in place?

Mike

MDS posted:

Allante93 posted:

When I demo'ed the 250DR and 300DR against my 250.2 it was on my four-box CD player and 282/SCDR.  The merits of the 300DR were very apparent through the 282.  My dealer and I agreed both the source and 282/SCDR were comfortably good enough to justify upgrading the amp to a 300DR.  Initially  we both had doubts about whether the source and pre-amp were up to it, but the in-store and long home demos dispelled those doubts emphatically.  In my view a 282/SCDR/300DR is an excellent combination and I would heartily recommend it to anyone who is prepared to spend that sort of money. 

All that said, given the OP's position, I think I would prioritise investment in the front end before thinking about replacing the 250DR.

Mike

Thanks Mike, it appears we are on the same page!

Allante93!

At the Bristol show this year Naaim were driving the Sopra 2 speakers with a 250dr they intially started with a 272,Non dr 250 into Sopra 1s then changing to a 250dr the difference was very evident the dr being a lot better then they added a XPSdr to the mix once again it really improved the system sounded wonderful really showed what a 272/XPSdr and 250dr based system could do.

The next upgrade was cables after that the Sopra 1s were changed for the Sopra 2s I was astonished at how competent the system was at driving these speakers so it would appear that the Naim upgrade route ie source first is the way to go.

When the 250dr was changed first for a non dr 300 then a 300dr it was obviously better but it did not in anyway put the 250dr to shame.

MDS posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

Yes - spent a whole afternoon.  To these ears the 300dr offers a better performance over the 250dr but nothing like the old 300 offered over the old 250.  But all imo etc!!

Strat - I wonder whether impression of the 300DR over the 250DR was accentuated by hearing it with the SL full loom in place?

Mike

No it was with a Rega P10/NDS/252 with normal Naim wiring and Naca.   I have had a separate demo of the SL wires and yes they make a difference.  How much?

Drewy posted:

Rob T posted:

greekspec2 posted:

after reading some of your posts it just justifies my hunch even more as I feel my Sopra 2 are lacking a 300DR and would give me what I'm looking for over my 250DR.

has anyone had pro-long audition time with a 300DR hooked up to a pair of Focal Sopra 2 on the other end?

I have not auditioned the 300-DR with your speakers (very nice) but I can say without hesitation with my PMC 20-26 the 300-DR really brings them to life! in a wonderfully controlled and articulate way that the 250-DR is unable to match, I would think the same rule would apply with those lovely speakers of yours.

Having said all of this I see you are running a 272 do you have a separate P/S for it?, if not I would say I would add an XPS-DR or 555PS to the 272 first and then think about the 300-DR upgrade, thats the route I have taken, adding the external P/S to your 272 will make a significant improvement. Hope that helps.

ATB.

So you say buying a 555ps would be a better investment than a 300dr? I don't have first hand experience of the combination of components in question but you're looking at about a £1200 difference in the cost. Surely adding the better power amp with its own separate power supply is going to be better value for money, would probably give better results and realistically would put an end to any itch to upgrade. 

My approach is to buy the best source and power amp I can and then add power supplies as future upgrades. 

 

 I was not suggesting that buying a 555PS would be a better investment than adding the 300-DR, to clarify things, the point I was trying to make to the op was, I feel he would gain more by improveing the pre amp first with external PS, I have chosen the XPS-DR which I think is a great match for the 272, I did audition the 555PS but felt the improvement in performance did not justify the extra financial outlay however saying that, there are forum members who have partnered their 272 with 555PS and their reports are very positive, at the end of the day it is all down to what an individual decides is best for them. If someone wants a 272/300-DR that`s fine, my point was if feel they will gain far more from a performance point of view (not a financial one) by improving the pre first and then the amp.

Reflecting on the virtues of the 250 and 300 pre and post DR, would anybody know whether a DR updated 300 is strictly identical, or not, to an original DR unit? For all what we know the DR update includes the pure and simple exchange of both boards of the NAP unit. Does the original 300 DR offer other features that may still differentiate its design and therefore SQ from an updated unit? 

Chag -

here is one of my reasons why I want to go this route,

the cost for at least me to purchase a XPS-DR is going to run me the same amount as is to trading/selling my current amp and paying the difference of a 300DR.I like to listen to my music on the louder side and think a raw N272 will give me what I want without having to purchase a PS, and if that's the case Naim should of built it that way from the get go. For me VFM is the 300DR for now, and while I can still get out of my 250DR with proper recovery then always get the PS later down the road call me backwards

analogmusic posted:

nigelb posted:

I listened to quite a lengthy demo of 250DR vs 300DR into Sopra 2s (with a NDX/XPS/282/Supercap front end) at a dealer a few months ago. Yes, the 300DR was superior with greater grip and control but the 250DR was more than capable of driving the Sopra 2s and was not embarrassed by the 300DR. In fact I would have been quite happy with the 250DR and felt the greater limiting factor was the source and possibly the pre amp. I have owned and upgraded from both the NDX and 282 and I could clearly hear their sonic signature in the demo. Not at all bad, but a limiting factor in my view.

So in conclusion I too would echo others here and improve the front end before upgrading the power amp. The addition of an XPS to your 272 would seem to be the logical first step.

Very interesting 

if you had to choose one would you keep the Nds or the 252/Scdr ?

compared to NDX and 282

That is a tricky one to answer as I went from NDX to NDS (adding an XPS) and then a couple of years later went from 282 to 252 both with SupercapDR. In both cases there was a significant improvement in SQ but i don't think I was hearing the NDS at its best until the 252 (and later SL speaker leads and 250DR) went in. All these components' performance are ultimately dependent on others in the chain so it is a bit of a chicken and egg story. What I would say however is that some actually stick with the 282, preferring its exuberance over the more subtle abilities of the 252. Not me though. There is no doubt the 282 is a stonking pre amp and more than capable of showing the difference between the NDX and NDS. As I have already mentioned, the SL cables now also complicate the upgrade heirachy and I would be tempted to upgrade to SL having reached NDX/282/250DR (and upwards) territory.

As usual the only way to decide.....well you know what comes next (assuming you have dealers that can demo or preferably loan kit).

not to mention Focal just released the Sopra N°3 this week and no I'm content on my loudspeakers

greekspec2 posted:

here is one of my reasons why I want to go this route,

the cost for at least me to purchase a XPS-DR is going to run me the same amount as is to trading/selling my current amp and paying the difference of a 300DR.I like to listen to my music on the louder side and think a raw N272 will give me what I want without having to purchase a PS, and if that's the case Naim should of built it that way from the get go. For me VFM is the 300DR for now, and while I can still get out of my 250DR with proper recovery then always get the PS later down the road call me backwards

A word of warning. At the dealer demo I mentioned earlier the host made the mistake of handing the iPad controller to the audience which of course includes the volume control. We (not me I hasten to add) managed to shut the 300DR down (into the Sopra 2s) by turning the wick up a bit too much. Yes it was loud when the thermal cut-out kicked in and the room was quite large but it wasn't exactly deafening. So don't think the 300DR as an indestructible party animal, it is not. Anyway after 10 mins, the 300DR had gathered its composure and started playing ball again. Interesting that the 250DR didn't behave this way but I don't think the audience abused it in quite the same way as the 300DR.

nigelb posted:

greekspec2 posted:

here is one of my reasons why I want to go this route,

the cost for at least me to purchase a XPS-DR is going to run me the same amount as is to trading/selling my current amp and paying the difference of a 300DR.I like to listen to my music on the louder side and think a raw N272 will give me what I want without having to purchase a PS, and if that's the case Naim should of built it that way from the get go. For me VFM is the 300DR for now, and while I can still get out of my 250DR with proper recovery then always get the PS later down the road call me backwards

A word of warning. At the dealer demo I mentioned earlier the host made the mistake of handing the iPad controller to the audience which of course includes the volume control. We (not me I hasten to add) managed to shut the 300DR down (into the Sopra 2s) by turning the wick up a bit too much. Yes it was loud when the thermal cut-out kicked in and the room was quite large but it wasn't exactly deafening. So don't think the 300DR as an indestructible party animal, it is not. Anyway after 10 mins, the 300DR had gathered its composure and started playing ball again. Interesting that the 250DR didn't behave this way but I don't think the audience abused it in quite the same way as the 300DR.

I tend to listen to my N272 closer at the 35-40 range with the trim turned up to +10.