NAP 250DR vs. 300DR: How much better?

Athos posted:

Hi,

my first post here.

About DR amps :

Last week, with friends, we spent an afternoon trying different amps : NAP 250.2, NAP 250.2 DR, NAP 300 (mine).

(On my system, with NAC 252 /  Supercap DR  )

We listened to jazz ( W Marsalis, Chet Baker, M Miller) and classical (Debussy Iberia).

The conclusions were the same that I can read here, and I agree with this : the 250 DR brings more detail, dynamics, big space, silence, and was superior to the 250.2 when plugged with the same mains cable.

Difficult to say between 250DR and NAP 300, who's the winner. Still, I have some little doubt about something I didn't read here.

We speak about dynamics, great detail, image, but what about finesse of the treble/medium, fidelity of the "tones", natural. I didn't read these words here.

The strings of the orchestra (Debussy), or the clarinet,  were not that beautiful with the DR.

I was expecting to upgrade my 300, now, what would that do with the things I question here...

I'm not so sure now, and a trial is not possible.

Maybe a longer session would dissipate these questions though...

That's interesting. Certainly not something I've been aware of since I changed from the 250.2 to the DR. Using both Naim IBL and Linn Isobarik I'd say if anything I've found the opposite and that tonally the DR seems more accurate. Recent albums have included Miles Davis, In a Silent Way, which really stood out to me as sounding very natural and Secrets of the Beehive by David Sylvian, where the instruments stood apart from the electronica in a way I've not heard before and really enjoyed.

I'm not aware of any such issues either after comparing 200 and 250 DR and 250 DR and 500 (non DR)

What I can see is that you do not have a Naim source, and therefore your preamp is not signal grounded.

So the 250 DR is being more honest and telling you that you need to get that preamp signal grounded.

Marksnaim posted:

That's interesting. Certainly not something I've been aware of since I changed from the 250.2 to the DR. Using both Naim IBL and Linn Isobarik I'd say if anything I've found the opposite and that tonally the DR seems more accurate. Recent albums have included Miles Davis, In a Silent Way, which really stood out to me as sounding very natural and Secrets of the Beehive by David Sylvian, where the instruments stood apart from the electronica in a way I've not heard before and really enjoyed.

Good, that's what I wanted to hear !

Actually, I don't want to gain dynamics, silence, details ..and harshness somewhere.

That's what frighten me the most maybe.

I might send mine this year for the DR upgrade, it seems there's a waiting list...

Last Saturday, we wondered if for a DR upgrade, I'd need to send both the amp and power supply.

Someone told me only the amp, but I don't remember who...

Athos posted:

Marksnaim posted:

That's interesting. Certainly not something I've been aware of since I changed from the 250.2 to the DR. Using both Naim IBL and Linn Isobarik I'd say if anything I've found the opposite and that tonally the DR seems more accurate. Recent albums have included Miles Davis, In a Silent Way, which really stood out to me as sounding very natural and Secrets of the Beehive by David Sylvian, where the instruments stood apart from the electronica in a way I've not heard before and really enjoyed.

Good, that's what I wanted to hear !

Actually, I don't want to gain dynamics, silence, details ..and harshness somewhere.

That's what frighten me the most maybe.

 

I might send mine this year for the DR upgrade, it seems there's a waiting list...

Last Saturday, we wondered if for a DR upgrade, I'd need to send both the amp and power supply.

Someone told me only the amp, but I don't remember who...

For the DR upgrade, just the amp. But if it is near an age where you want it to be recapped then the power supply also needs to be sent.

So still not back from Naim but I had an interesting conversation with my dealer about this whole nonesense with the customs and tax. The burden of paperwork on them is also fairly high and, as mentioned, the cost of my 250 has now reached the cost of a new 300DR with all the shipping, erroneous tax (with all sides pointing fingers at each other and a refund near on nigh impossible). Added to that, import rules from HMRC changed a while back so even for goods that are supposedly exemp (such as returns for repair to country of manufacture) HMRC will charge the fill VAT on the unit and allegedly hold that in escrow to be reclaimed only when there is proof the unit left the UK again.

While my dealer generally thinks the upgrades are great value, I think they also came to the conclusion that they would not offer to do DR upgrade handling for overseas customers ever again - not for them but for the sake of the customer. The very real lesson learned is that that it most definitly is cheaper and possibly faster to sell a 250.2 locally and put the proceeds to a new 250DR (nice and simple export paperwork). And if you really have the money to ship a 250 half way around the world and risk the costs of blunders from the courier, the carrier (or both) on 2 journey legs (there and back), then their advice would be to sell a 250.2 and buy a new 300DR since at least you would break even with a much better amp.

For me sadly, the lesson is too late. Others be warned. I am sure I will enjoy my 250DR when it comes back but I will always know it could have been a 300DR for the same cost and less paperwork.

I did raise the question of what happens in 8 years when the whole lot of 7 Naim boxes is ready for servicing and recapping? "Absolutely no idea" was the response.

feeling_zen posted:

So still not back from Naim but I had an interesting conversation with my dealer about this whole nonesense with the customs and tax. The burden of paperwork on them is also fairly high and, as mentioned, the cost of my 250 has now reached the cost of a new 300DR with all the shipping, erroneous tax (with all sides pointing fingers at each other and a refund near on nigh impossible). Added to that, import rules from HMRC changed a while back so even for goods that are supposedly exemp (such as returns for repair to country of manufacture) HMRC will charge the fill VAT on the unit and allegedly hold that in escrow to be reclaimed only when there is proof the unit left the UK again.

While my dealer generally thinks the upgrades are great value, I think they also came to the conclusion that they would not offer to do DR upgrade handling for overseas customers ever again - not for them but for the sake of the customer. The very real lesson learned is that that it most definitly is cheaper and possibly faster to sell a 250.2 locally and put the proceeds to a new 250DR (nice and simple export paperwork). And if you really have the money to ship a 250 half way around the world and risk the costs of blunders from the courier, the carrier (or both) on 2 journey legs (there and back), then their advice would be to sell a 250.2 and buy a new 300DR since at least you would break even with a much better amp.

For me sadly, the lesson is too late. Others be warned. I am sure I will enjoy my 250DR when it comes back but I will always know it could have been a 300DR for the same cost and less paperwork.

I did raise the question of what happens in 8 years when the whole lot of 7 Naim boxes is ready for servicing and recapping? "Absolutely no idea" was the response.

I sold my 250DR in 2 days and ordered me a 300DR to push my Sopra 3's

Rub it in why don't you.

I didn't mean for it to come across that way

very sorry to hear about this Feeling _zen unfortunately this does not encourage people living overseas to spend more money on Naim, and given that now that export market is uncertain given Brexit..... 

Yes, I couldn't help feeling the same. I take it there is no Naim service partner in that part of the world? If not perhaps an opportunity for some one.?

Yeah I think there is a closer one in Seoul but they don't speak English and I don't speak Korean beyond basic greetings and cab instructions. And technically it is not returning to the manufacturer then so different more complex paperwork since the export paperwork is from my purchase in the UK. Without that lining up with the import for repair documents things get more complicated then they already are.

The Naim service partner in Japan honored servicing for 5 years (the length of the warranty) from 2008, when Naim pulled out of Japan until 2013. After that point they ceased to operate.  

So after being away for nearly 2 months (and actually at Naim from June 7th to July 12th!! - apparently it was sitting around done in the logistics dep until my dealer called them and said "Oi!") my ridiculous expensive 250DR is on its way back. HMRC have indeed not yet agreed to refund the erroneous VAT but just when I thought the charges were over, I got a call from Japanese customs saying they had been notified of my returning unit via UPS and that, yes it was marked as a repair return and yes, they acknowledge I paid Japanese VAT once on it already but that.... I will be charged VAT again. Not because of any error in paperwork but because VAT is subject to every time an item is stamped import regardless of whether VAT was previously paid. It's just the law so suck it up was basically the response. I called them thieves and they had the cheek to say "Yup".

I am probably the only 250DR owner that is starting to resent the unit like a bad penny not even heard it yet. 2 days and counting.

Not the best of news, but are you asked to pay VAT on what was the new price (and relevant at the time of manufacture or current), or just the servicing costs? At least the latter would be smaller and 'perhaps' justifiable.

And the burn-in period still to come! (Sorry)

Nick from Suffolk posted:

Not the best of news, but are you asked to pay VAT on what was the new price (and relevant at the time of manufacture or current), or just the servicing costs? At least the latter would be smaller and 'perhaps' justifiable.

And the burn-in period still to come! (Sorry)

 

VAT on the full value of a new unit. That's full VAT 3 times!

Holy cra.... That's horrendous!! 

Bloody jobsworths. Hope the results help take some of the sting away.

Very sorry to hear such an unjust application of Tax - they gotta justify their existence some how I guess.

Once your 250 DR is fully run in you will be able to lose yourself in the music and hopefully the VAT nightmare will be forgotten.

Mine just seems to get better and better.

Enjoy the music.

It's here. 250DR with the final VAT paid is finally running in. Naim even chucked in a new box FOC and reprinted the original product SN label.

My dealer confirmed that the running in time for a non recapped 250 (mine was only 2 years old so didn't need it) is actually pretty fast. About 1-2 weeks compaired to a few months for running in a new set of caps and  transformer.

Yes, in hindisght for the same cost I could have turned it around into a 300DR instead but it's all sunk cost now. So time to enjoy. I think this thread can be laid to rest.

feeling_zen posted:.....

 

Yes, in hindisght for the same cost I could have turned it around into a 300DR instead but it's all sunk cost now. So time to enjoy. I think this thread can be laid to rest.

Laid to rest, it just began you must let us know how the 250 resides in your environment.

Day 1, out the box

After the 1st Week 

After the 2nd Week 

After the 1st Month

Glad the long wait is over, it was painful!

Yes, we all endured your pain.

Enjoy your music.

Allante 93!

Allante93 posted:

feeling_zen posted:.....

 

Yes, in hindisght for the same cost I could have turned it around into a 300DR instead but it's all sunk cost now. So time to enjoy. I think this thread can be laid to rest.

Laid to rest, it just began you must let us know how the 250 resides in your environment.

Day 1, out the box

Hot as hell today so it probably cooled down when I powered it up compaired to the toasty temp it was at when I unboxed it. Out of the box, it certainly didn't sound forced like a brand new 250.2 but my ears had been deprived of 8 weeks of the main system so there is always the plecebo effect where anything sounds fantastic.

Definitly a hint of that acceleration that people describe as "inky blackness" where sounds just explodes out of it from nothing. But still running in. Bass on the 250DR punches lower but I feel the control is not quite there yet. Yes it goes deeper and sharper but at this stage of being fresh out of a box, the low end seems to be lacking some of the detailed texture that I got when I originally added the SCDR to the system. Since I work from home, I will leave it on all day while my wife is out at work so that it can properly breath.

I should add now that probably around the same time it gets run in, I will then suddenly be without speakers for a while as the 23s are moving on to make way for Twenty5.23s (because I can get a pair for a blinding good deal).

feeling_zen posted:

Naim even chucked in a new box FOC and reprinted the original product SN label.

 

I think Naim do that as a matter of routine now.  My 555PS came back similarly newly-boxed when I had it DR'ed earlier this year.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy you 250DR, especially after all the hassle you've had to put up with with customs stuff.

Mike

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the Twenty5.23's, Feeling_Zen! 

Mayor West posted:

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the Twenty5.23's, Feeling_Zen! 

Will be another thread for that.

Day 2: Sounding very boring. Left on running random music in another room. Walked in and put on a few favortite tracks. Completely lackluster and the deeper bass I heard yesterday is gone. Today is no-bass.

feeling_zen posted:

Mayor West posted:

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the Twenty5.23's, Feeling_Zen! 

Will be another thread for that.

Day 2: Sounding very boring. Left on running random music in another room. Walked in and put on a few favortite tracks. Completely lackluster and the deeper bass I heard yesterday is gone. Today is no-bass.

Sounds like the typical challenging route of running in new stuff. But be assured, the dips will disappear ....

I'm running in a new cable at the moment - up and down like a fiddlers elbow - crazy.

Even if copper or silver or whatever wires encased in insulation were to be capable of changing as a result of an audio signal passing through them (maybe very thin speaker cables running very high average power), there is no way that the effect would change up and down daily: the most likely explanations would be a change in equipment condition (e.g. cold amp vs warmed up one, or an intermittent fault with an electronic component, or a sensitive component responding to variable source of RF interference), environmental - though likely to be subtle in practice (anything moved in room? One day very humid, the next very dry),  physiologocal (e.g. music sounds different if you have even a small pressure differenctial between ambient and in your ears), psychological.  

And when it comes to a gradual improvement rather than up and down, the last of these is the most likely as you get used to the new sound. The same is likely to hold true for most other than wires, apart from mechanical things where the initial stiffness changes with use.