NAP 250DR vs. 300DR: How much better?

Mr Bystander - a few years ago I would have agreed entirely - I was in the sceptical  camp and I know from other fora that well informed people hold true to cables not making any difference.   But increasingly I've heard things differently.  6 weeks ago I home loaned a Chord Sig Aray (fully run in) and the change over the hi-line on my CDS3 was so obvious.   Ordered a new one which arrived and on immediate swapping with the demo model the drop in performance was obvious.

Since then the system has been left switched on and I have reviewed every day (almost) with the same track and the performance is fluctuating.  Anything else in the system causing this? No because vinyl and FM sound as ever. Expectation bias you might ask?  No that wouldn't make sense. If I was hearing a glorious improvement maybe - possibly but not this.  

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Bystander - a few years ago I would have agreed entirely - I was in the sceptical  camp and I know from other fora that well informed people hold true to cables not making any difference.   But increasingly I've heard things differently.  6 weeks ago I home loaned a Chord Sig Aray (fully run in) and the change over the hi-line on my CDS3 was so obvious.   Ordered a new one which arrived and on immediate swapping with the demo model the drop in performance was obvious.

Since then the system has been left switched on and I have reviewed every day (almost) with the same track and the performance is fluctuating.  Anything else in the system causing this? No because vinyl and FM sound as ever. Expectation bias you might ask?  No that wouldn't make sense. If I was hearing a glorious improvement maybe - possibly but not this.  

Regards,

Lindsay

But, as I said, even if the cable were capable of changing as a consequence of the audio signal, by what possible mechanism could it fluctuate, better one day than the next then back again? If only CD is affected, being the only source through that cable, that makes me suspect the CD player - which could be either a fault with the player, or if only with this one cable (though this is pure speculation and I have no idea how likely) the result of changing RF fields, perhaps being induced in the said cable causing RF interference within the DAC, that cable being susceptible (either the design or maybe that individual one having a fault such as poor screen connection).

It would be interesting to swap this cable with your pre-power interconnect if the connections are the same.

Different components burn in at different rates and to different effect which act as variables constantly changing the equation. Even if you take those rates to be at least be linear, the combination of these affects at any given point in time can add up to different overall "behavior" of an electrical appliance as a whole.

In my case, the source had been wamed up again for a week prior to arrival of the 250DR. As for cold vs. warm - well maybe but in reverse. It was a toasty unit that I extracted from the box, being a scorching hot day. No doubt it is cooler now powered on that it was powered off.

As for psychology - absolutely. It probably plays a larger factor than people give it credit for. Though I tend to be aware of a combination of music sounding "off" being accompanied by certain moods. However, the fact it had no bass today was fact, not opinion. If we can't trust our ears enough to tell us that, honestly, we might as well all pack up and not bother spending a penny of hifi.

In general I hear things get steadily improved over time (or steadily worse at the end of their life) exactly as Bystander says. However, the 250DR is the first item I have had which is not behaving that way and it is fairly obvious.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Mr Bystander - a few years ago I would have agreed entirely - I was in the sceptical  camp and I know from other fora that well informed people hold true to cables not making any difference.   But increasingly I've heard things differently.  6 weeks ago I home loaned a Chord Sig Aray (fully run in) and the change over the hi-line on my CDS3 was so obvious.   Ordered a new one which arrived and on immediate swapping with the demo model the drop in performance was obvious.

Since then the system has been left switched on and I have reviewed every day (almost) with the same track and the performance is fluctuating.  Anything else in the system causing this? No because vinyl and FM sound as ever. Expectation bias you might ask?  No that wouldn't make sense. If I was hearing a glorious improvement maybe - possibly but not this.  

Regards,

Lindsay

But, as I said, even if the cable were capable of changing as a consequence of the audio signal, by what possible mechanism could it fluctuate, better one day than the next then back again? If only CD is affected, being the only source through that cable, that makes me suspect the CD player - which could be either a fault with the player, or if only with this one cable (though this is pure speculation and I have no idea how likely) the result of changing RF fields, perhaps being induced in the said cable causing RF interference within the DAC, that cable being susceptible (either the design or maybe that individual one having a fault such as poor screen connection).

It would be interesting to swap this cable with your pre-power interconnect if the connections are the same.

The CDP is just fine it was beautifully open and fluid with the demo cable.

Well I've been with the 250DR for a little over a week now. Remember, the original unit was just 2 years old so nicely run in but no need to recap it. My dealer assures me this dramatically cuts down the run in time after the upgrade since the parts that really take have not changed.

So what was the week like? Well up and down. Out of the box the unit sounded pretty good but day 2 and 3 was nearly unlistenable. Bass had packed up and went out to lunch and never came back - at least for a couple days. After that things started to get better until 2 days ago when it really dramatically opened up and has been like that so far. Not making any other changes, the 250DR feeding the same PMC Twenty.23s as before.

Sound change

Wide and tall. That's probably the easiest way to describe the obvious change in as few words as possible. The soundstage has now blow out to be much wider than the speaker placement and the focus of everything seems to have move another foot or so upwards above the top level of the speakers. I never felt the soundstage was anything other than large before but the 250DR has made this positively gigantic. The soundstaging before was precise (not something always attributed to Naim but 23s let this through) but now instruments have grown in size and stopped being accurate pinpricks of sound origin and started to become living objects in the room. It is really something really quite enjoyable and not something I've heard before in real hifi. I had come to associate that huge size of image with very un hifi speakers like Bose 901s (which I had for years). The size is not accompanies by thin airiness either but by a real solid sensation that instruments have substance attached to them.

Similar to the differnce between an 82 and 52, the sound is a bit more grown up and slowed down by the psychological effect of being able to resolve more information that things are less of a blur. I mean this in the best possible way - generally the word slow is associated with a bad trait but clarity does tend make the brain feel less rushed and when that is the source of time dilation, the effect is purely enjoyable.

Things to be wary of. It is very clear the 250DR does have a different sonic personaity to the 250. Most everyone has universally praised every aspect of the 250DR but I feel there are things that, while not deficiencies, do need to be known before diving in. While tonally it is of a similar nature to a 250,2, you would not mistake it for one. The 250.2 has a certain bass weight that lends itself very well to some systems or spekers that don't have large drivers like the 23s. I never experienced the so called 250 low frequency "bump" that some have perported to and instead just found that it could add extension and authority to low frequency control where other power amps failed and this really benefits some speakers. While the bass is much clearer (it really is), it is also much more reticent to come out and play. This may mean the amp is more neutral or accurate (which is highly subjective anyway) since tracks that obviously have it, like Stanley Clarke's Justice Groove, still have it in the same quantiies but it is so clear and no longer omnidirectional but placed as accurately as everything else. But other tracks, the low frequences have moved to the background a bit letting other instruments come forward into the large stage.

I have no doubt at all that this is an improvement - but it does take a bit of getting used to. It manages to push some of that low end information to the background (not on every track) but greatly increases the overall solidarity and size of everything anyway. A neat trick. And one that has made me wonder if 23s really are as big as I dare go in my current room. With this level of control, maybe Twenty5.26 could be an interesting temptation!?

Was it ultimately worth the cost of a 300DR after all the customs fiascos at both ends? Obviously not. Only a 300DR is worth a 300DR - to say otherwise would be nonsense. Am I happy with the result? You betcha.

Feeling_Zen,  good news that you are happy with your upgraded 250DR.  It is a fery fine amp.  It is so unfortunate that you have had to wait so long and pay so much, but perhaps others will be spared the misfortune by virtue of your cautionary tale.  It is good that you can move on and enjoy your music from your new amp.

Charlie

Glad your 250DR has come on-song for you, Feeling_Zen.  I also think you've described well the differences to the 250.2. While I've no doubt that the 250DR (and 300DR) are overall better than the 250.2, I still remember my 250.2 fondly. It had some sonic traits that made some music very enjoyable. Your comments on the bass I recognise which on some rock music lends a very likeable 'whack' to bass and drums. I also felt it has a pleasing 'edge', a little-like the slight 'zing' you get in the aftertaste of real lemonade.

MDS posted:

feeling_zen posted:

Naim even chucked in a new box FOC and reprinted the original product SN label.

 

I think Naim do that as a matter of routine now.  My 555PS came back similarly newly-boxed when I had it DR'ed earlier this year.

Mike

Yep my 300 came back in a new box after being DR'd - with new non-green Naim logo branding on it

Will99 posted:

Yep my 300 came back in a new box after being DR'd - with new non-green Naim logo branding on it

New non-green Naim logo???!!!

Mine came back on Friday with the green logo intact.

Keith

KRM posted:

Will99 posted:

Yep my 300 came back in a new box after being DR'd - with new non-green Naim logo branding on it

New non-green Naim logo???!!!

Mine came back on Friday with the green logo intact.

Keith

Will99 is right. All black, grey and white. Kind of looks like Linn boxes from the 90s.

Are there any pictures? Everything is still green on the main website.

KRM posted:

Are there any pictures? Everything is still green on the main website.

Can't post any pics right now - I'm away from home. From what I can recall it's the same font and smile/curve but just black or dark grey on a white background.

I have 250DR. I spent saturday listening to 300DR and 500DR on the new Magicos. 

The 250DR is superb. I really wish there was a DR upgrade for my 6-pack of 135s. Sigh.

300DR is better, and "worth" the extra money. 500DR is better still, and fixes all the things I disliked about the raw 500. And is "worth" the extra money over the 300DR.

KRM posted:

Are there any pictures? Everything is still green on the main website.

I think Will99 means the 'new non-green Naim logo' is on the box as in packaging, not on the equipment itself.

Are, phew!

Uggh.. They should have saved the black boxes with green logos at least until they've made major style/design change.

Hal posted:

Uggh.. They should have saved the black boxes with green logos at least until they've made major style/design change.

The boxes are/were always white with green logos. Unless you have a stack of the old boxes on display, I don't see the mismatch being a problem unless it's a tidy shed/attic thing...

I would take a non-DR nap 300 over a 250-DR.

MangoMonkey posted:

I would take a non-DR nap 300 over a 250-DR.

You might be right - but have you done a direct comparison?

I regret not getting my 300DR over the 250DR I had the 300DR out the boxed out performed my well broken in 250DR by a long mile

greekspec2 posted:

I regret not getting my 300DR over the 250DR I had the 300DR out the boxed out performed my well broken in 250DR by a long mile

That is probably not what you want to tell someone who's 250DR cost them more than a new 300DR.

If the 300DR and its bigger Naim brothers did not exist, the 250DR would be hailed as one of the best amplifiers in existence. I love my 250DR and cannot imagine how it could be better. You have been through the ringer, and are rightly frustrated, but enjoy your lovely amp.All the best for the future.

Kiwi cat posted:

If the 300DR and its bigger Naim brothers did not exist, the 250DR would be hailed as one of the best amplifiers in existence. I love my 250DR and cannot imagine how it could be better. You have been through the ringer, and are rightly frustrated, but enjoy your lovely amp.All the best for the future.

Indeed. My comment was largely in jest. The 250DR has settled in and the cost has mainly been forgotten already.