Vinyl system, no streaming

Hi DT,

Depends on your budget - as ever.   Have you heard a SN2?  Not at the level of 282/250DR but a wonderfully conceived simple all analogue integrated amp.  Combined with a Stageline phono stage, good TT (Rega?) and right speakers and you'll love your music.

Regards,

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay:

I have an LP12 and rebuilt Saras (long in the tooth but still robust). I have heard the SN, but not the SN2. I'm still afflicted with mild audiophilia nervosa, and like the idea of upgradable separates. I'll add the SN2 to my audition list -- which now reads: SN2!

David 

box count restrictions?

I would suggest that the 272 is still worth serious consideration given your listening circumstances. It is a very fine pre-amp in its own right and will give you access to Internet Radio as well as Spotify and Tidal, which need not require further outlay. There are, of course, more streaming options if your requirements go in that direction, so you are, to an extent future proofed.

 Like the OP I still remain firmly attached to vinyl and CD but I feel that you would be hard pushed to beat the 272/250dr combo on a pound for pound basis even when using only these sources, or indeed on a dollar for dollar basis. My comments on Spotify and Tidal are from a UK perspective only, not certain of the position in the US.

feeling_zen posted:

box count restrictions?

None, apart from SWMBO and cost. 

what's your vinyl source? what TT/Cartridge/PhonoStage do you have?

To drive Saras, you are looking at a 250. Then you need a preamp: 282/Hicap or 272. 

Belfast Taxman posted:

I would suggest that the 272 is still worth serious consideration given your listening circumstances. It is a very fine pre-amp in its own right and will give you access to Internet Radio as well as Spotify and Tidal, which need not require further outlay. There are, of course, more streaming options if your requirements go in that direction, so you are, to an extent future proofed.

 Like the OP I still remain firmly attached to vinyl and CD but I feel that you would be hard pushed to beat the 272/250dr combo on a pound for pound basis even when using only these sources, or indeed on a dollar for dollar basis. My comments on Spotify and Tidal are from a UK perspective only, not certain of the position in the US.

Hi Taxman. I can't help thinking the 272 gives me features I don't really need, but I could be wrong. Here's the kink in my streaming plans: I'm (sorta, kinda) tempted by the Raspberry Pi DIY route until the tech all settles down.  

MangoMonkey posted:

what's your vinyl source? what TT/Cartridge/PhonoStage do you have?

LP12, Ekos, Klyde feeding a borrowed Aragon with decent phono.

Hungryhalibut posted:

To drive Saras, you are looking at a 250. Then you need a preamp: 282/Hicap or 272. 

Is a 272 comparable to a 282/Hicap (yes, I really am that clueless!).

The 272 does indeed contain stuff you don't need now but has a few points in its favour: it's better than the 202, it costs less than the 282, it's self powered, so you can use it with a 250 without the need for a Hicap, and it contains an Internet radio, and FM too if you buy the extra board. If you are thinking of streaming with a Pi, it can do that too. The 282 may be marginally better, but at a significant extra cost. 

dtchayes posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

To drive Saras, you are looking at a 250. Then you need a preamp: 282/Hicap or 272. 

Is a 272 comparable to a 282/Hicap (yes, I really am that clueless!).

Arguably yes, even more so if you add an XPS to the 272. There have been previous comments on this Forum to that effect. As to the Op's point about unused features, well yes I use a 272 without full-on streaming and am very happy with it, and I don't worry now what I might use it for in the future.

PS - totally off thread, but can I just thank those previous posters who have provided guidance on how to build a Naimfraim. I have just acquired one second- hand with no instructions ( I am aware that the Naim website does provide a diagram but without the previous threads, I, possibly an award winner for worst DIY person ever, would simply never have managed. 

Have you considered Olive or CB Naim gear?  After all, the 'classic' setup (other than Isobariks!) was Naim 32/SNAPS/250/Linn Saras.  My first upgrade after acquiring my Linn many years ago was 32/HiCap/250 (all CB), later upgrading to 135s, and then going active with NAXO/HiCap/and 2 additional 135s (these additions were Olive, BTW.  These sounded REALLY good into Active Saras, and I only later upgraded to Naim SBLs (active) and 52/52PS.   

Just had me thinking - I guess a Superuniti is akin to an  old style receiver with a digital input but no phono.

Ditto on the olive stuff--far more bang for the buck, and you can use internal phono cards for additional savings. The 82 and the 52 are as good as they ever were, and the 282 is only marginally better than the 82.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Just had me thinking - I guess a Superuniti is akin to an  old style receiver with a digital input but no phono.

More than just akin to. The Uniti range are stereo receivers period. It just would be good brand image for Naim to market receivers. Uniti is a nice way of masking this Since "stereo receiver" sounds so retro and very un hifi.

Thank you all so much for your help and advice. Next up: A visit to Wellington Audio in South Florida for auditions.

Dungassin posted:

Have you considered Olive or CB Naim gear?  After all, the 'classic' setup (other than Isobariks!) was Naim 32/SNAPS/250/Linn Saras.  My first upgrade after acquiring my Linn many years ago was 32/HiCap/250 (all CB), later upgrading to 135s, and then going active with NAXO/HiCap/and 2 additional 135s (these additions were Olive, BTW.  These sounded REALLY good into Active Saras, and I only later upgraded to Naim SBLs (active) and 52/52PS.   

Great idea - but I'm finding that used Naim gear is thin on the ground (and several states away) in the U.S.

Welcome back to the Naim Forum.

Question 1:  How many LP's do you have that you love already?  How many do you want to buy  in the future?

Question 2:  Seeing around the corner, how long do you expect to stay in your current setting?  How big a commitment are you willing to make to shipping records when you can carry on all this music digitally?

Question 3:  How big a commitment do you want to make to vinyl records and the related accessories, which include record racks, a place for the record racks, record cleaning machines, accessories for the rcm's, etc.  When it costs $1000 to replace your current record cleaning machine, are you reaching for your wallet, wanting to upgrade to the new sonic cavitation RCM, or running for the exits?

If you have less than 50 newish vinyl records, stop now and get into streaming unless you have a large budget for disappointment, garage sales, record cleaners, freight, etc.  Vinyl is all about analog and analog is all about money to isolate and manage your analog set up.   That means a commitment to shelves, vibration management, maintenance and QA personnel, etc.    In the real world, analog is a liability, not an asset.

If you have 200-500 mint vinyl records or more, accumulated over the last 50 years, buy a Superline and Supercap.    I have this setup and I am done shopping for a long time.  A Stageline attached to a new preamp and/or power supply will take you far.  My neighbor just bought a used Nait 2 for his cheapo turntable and he can't quit talking about it.  He simply plugs his cheap MM turntable into the back of the Nait 2 and his family are happier than ever.  They are playing the records their son bought before he went to college and are glad to have fun with it.

If you have bought these 200 mint vinyl records in the last 10 years since the vinyl "renaissance", go back to start and get into streaming.

Vinyl sounds good.  At its best, Naim Superline Supercap is up there with the best, and the best is vinyl sounds way better than the best CD.    The best hi-res download sounds as good or better than the best vinyl.   The question is, are you willing to wait with streaming until it catches up with vinyl?

Naim is right.  Vinyl is in renaissance.  It sounds better than your CD555.  Streaming is the future if you are getting started.   I have a lot of vinyl.  But digital is the winner in the end.

Skip posted:

Vinyl is all about analog and analog is all about money to isolate and manage your analog set up. That means a commitment to shelves, vibration management, maintenance and QA personnel, etc.  In the real world, analog is a liability, not an asset.

You present an interesting perspective on analog, especially coming from a vinyl user. Streaming is not without its own set of commitments, but you're doing both so I appreciate what you've got to offer between the two formats.  As a strictly physical format user (like the OP) I would add that listening habits should also be considered. I listen to entire albums, have a predilection for music from the vinyl age, and find the sound of modern mastering compromises the premise for having bought my rather expensive and resolving Naim gear. Additionally, I don't require LPs to be in mint condition to derive listening pleasure from them - VG condition and a RCM works for me, and I require no QA personnel beyond myself. The "compromises" of vinyl and CD plays superbly for my wants and needs and I'm not looking forward. Hunting used vinyl and CDs has become a fun, if not passionate hobby for me and the costs are typically far less than downloads, even at the MP3 level.

JR - I strongly agree with what you say. There is one point, and here I am aware I may be in the minority on this forum, on vinyl that seems to be overstated and that is the supposedly inferior SQ of "modern vinyl". I would agree that if you thought modern technology would inherently improve vinyl production in terms of SQ compared to the "golden age" of the late 70's and early 80's, then you would be wrong.

However, my feeling is that you simply cannot generalise here. Amongst my many 00's of vinyl records from the above golden age are some that sound superb, others that, in pure SQ terms, sound rubbish. This has nothing to do with current condition, but how the music was originally engineered, produced and mastered. I also have some modern day vinyl that sounds equal to anything produced from that era, and indeed some that don't.

Yes, hi-res digital can sound amazing too but as Joe points out, streaming has its problems. The evidence is clear from this Forum if you compare the Hi-fi corner forum with the Streaming Audio forum. The latter is full of threads about things that don't work, something almost entirely lacking here.

ps - I have to admit that some of my albums are just rubbish, ignoring SQ, and herein lies one advantage of the streaming era for me. The ability to QC my purchases, and broaden their range, by using Spotitidal as a sort of enormous in- store record booth (I do feel old by the fact that I can remember them).

I wish every Taxman that I have encountered was as helpful as our man from Belfast.   Excellent post.

Regards,

Lindsay

joerand posted:

Skip posted:

Vinyl is all about analog and analog is all about money to isolate and manage your analog set up. That means a commitment to shelves, vibration management, maintenance and QA personnel, etc.  In the real world, analog is a liability, not an asset.

You present an interesting perspective on analog, especially coming from a vinyl user. Streaming is not without its own set of commitments, but you're doing both so I appreciate what you've got to offer between the two formats.  As a strictly physical format user (like the OP) I would add that listening habits should also be considered. I listen to entire albums, have a predilection for music from the vinyl age, and find the sound of modern mastering compromises the premise for having bought my rather expensive and resolving Naim gear. Additionally, I don't require LPs to be in mint condition to derive listening pleasure from them - VG condition and a RCM works for me, and I require no QA personnel beyond myself. The "compromises" of vinyl and CD plays superbly for my wants and needs and I'm not looking forward. Hunting used vinyl and CDs has become a fun, if not passionate hobby for me and the costs are typically far less than downloads, even at the MP3 level.

Not meaning to go way off topic but the above comments were just so interesting. Especially about the committment to all the supporting equipment and time for vinyl. While the same can be said of streaming the same cannot be said for every streaming user and as time goes on it will reach zero committment dedicated to streaming.

What I mean is, that the committment in time, knowledge, space, equipment for managing a vinyl collection is soley applicable to a vinyl collection. However, the requirements for streaming are generic and becomming common place. In increasingly connected homes, a network will exist anyway and be managed for multiple purposes (home office, connected devices etc.). Even the server and all the tasks associated with regular backup and replacement may be already in place for a NAS without streaming in the picture. In those scenarios, streaming is nothing more than pluggging in a streamer to the wall and connecting the LAN cable to a socket that may also be in the wall and using a NAS you already have.

Not everyone is there yet, but in my case I live in a fully connected home (LAN ports on every plug socket) with a NAS that existed before I put any music on it. So it was very much of a zero additional effort proposition. That will become the norm eventually. Though I never got into vinyl, I had massive book cases which all had to go to make space for life. It was like having a limb remoed when the books went but 3 days with an ereader and I never thought about them again. Similr to vinyl I had a massive Laserdisc collection in the 90s and invested heavily in that. Now everything music, film or book related is all on a server and I really resent the space taken up by the huge built-in units I had installed to house all the stuff.

David

If you decide to buy new pre-power (say 282 or 252) I'd wait untill at least July / August.
It seems NAIM may be coming out with something exciting during the summer.

If this new product or a product range appeals to you - excellent. Conversely if you decide to go for a pre-loved pre-amp prices may actually decrease a bit, as people upgrade their 'old and useless 282s and 252s' to something new.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

David

If you decide to buy new pre-power (say 282 or 252) I'd wait untill at least July / August.
It seems NAIM may be coming out with something exciting during the summer.

If this new product or a product range appeals to you - excellent. Conversely if you decide to go for a pre-loved pre-amp prices may actually decrease a bit, as people upgrade their 'old and useless 282s and 252s' to something new.

Adam

Classic!