From 122x/150x to Supernait 2

For the price difference, I would hope so!

Just as an aside, I recently compared a SN2 to a 202/200 based system at the Naim retailer, to my ears the SN2 bettered the pre-power combo easily.

I'm a happy Supernait 2 owner! To my ears it's better than a 202/200 so I would say it easily beat your 122/150 setup. Supernait 2 is DR so it's works right out of the box and you can further upgrade it with a HiCap DR in the future. What speakers you have?

I would not move from separates to a Supernait 2. 

if you want to improve on your pre/power, add a Hicap DR, it is better than the SN2 DR supply

For all those who prefer Supernait compared to a pre-power, there are equal number of people who prefer pre-power Naim amplifier to a Supernait.

Since you have CD5X and Lp12, those funds are better utilized improving your sources.

I think it is more of an issue that the 122x/150x is, by virtue of desgn, going to outperform other integrated amplification options in its price point and provide some flexibility that an integrated cannot.

Comparing it directly to a SN2 just because it is a seperate pre/power is probably not going to be meaningful. I would also expect the SN2 to come out way ahead. Though saying that, I would find it interesting to see what a current 152XS/155XS is capable of nect to a SN2 and then throw a FlatcapXS into the picture.

i would upgrade the pre !

I upgraded from a 152XS/155XS/FlatcapXS and the Supernait2 is better in all respects. It also keeps the box count down!

I would also go for the SN2, but you'll probably want to improve the source sooner or later...

feeling_zen posted:

I think it is more of an issue that the 122x/150x is, by virtue of desgn, going to outperform other integrated amplification options in its price point and provide some flexibility that an integrated cannot.

Comparing it directly to a SN2 just because it is a seperate pre/power is probably not going to be meaningful. I would also expect the SN2 to come out way ahead. Though saying that, I would find it interesting to see what a current 152XS/155XS is capable of nect to a SN2 and then throw a FlatcapXS into the picture.

Agreed. Personally I preferred the Nait XS to the 152XS/155XS. 

Nic Chan posted:

I'm a happy Supernait 2 owner! To my ears it's better than a 202/200 so I would say it easily beat your 122/150 setup. Supernait 2 is DR so it's works right out of the box and you can further upgrade it with a HiCap DR in the future. What speakers you have?

Using Rega RX3 floor standing speakers at present. I bought a pair of these speakers last year after a very lengthy home demo. I think tho my 150x/122x may not show the full potential of these speakers so was considering a more powerful amp.

SN2 is way ahead of 122X/150X to these ears regardless of what psu you put on them. I also prefer it to the 202/200. You have to consider that much of the 'improvement' of separating the pre from power is negated in terms of the extra price you pay for two cases and cabling in between. To be a clear step up after that from a SN2, you have to consider the 282/HCDR/250DR.

Personally I prefered the SN2 to the 202/200 and it can be further improved with a hicap dr.  I suspect the improvement would be significant over 122/150.  

I found the 202/Napsc/HCDR a shade more resolving than SN2/HCDR. It made me hear what was missing, particularly on live recordings.

G

I don't think it would be an upgrade. More a sideways move.

You really want to upgrade perhaps a 202 or 282?

Boy, I don't think it's fair to call it a sideways move, not after what I heard when I did the 202/200- SN2, comparo.

I think if you say that the SN2 is a sideways move, then you would also have to say a 282-250-2 would also be a sideways move, because to be completely honest, the demo I recently did at the dealer, the SN2 was not shown a clean pair of heels by the higher spec separates. And, no, there was nothing wrong with the 282-250-2 combo, it just wasn't the huge difference I was expecting being a previous owner of that particular combo.

The SN2 really surprised the heck out of me, enough to consider a purchase and deal with all the quirks again that come with Naim ownership.

As you wish Badlands

I happen to own both SN2 and 282/250 so please alowe me to have a different opinion.

With the right speakers, the 152/155 set up can sound really enjoyable .. at least to my and a few music buddies' ears.. It's quite a performer in the Naim portfolio ... so as always do listen carefully before you jump... Most of the products bring or takeaway something from the party...so do check the magic you hear and enjoy is still there with the newer/ more performant  component.. you can't assume that to be the case as I have discovered...and it is an individual and source/speaker synergy thing..

I was in quite  a similar position to you thinking of upgrading my amp's I had 122x/150/FlatCap XS, I decided to upgrade my pre first personally I prefer pre/power although I have not heard a SN2 only Nait 5i and Nait XS so I can only comment on the what changing a pre might do,  so incase that is of help. I went with a 202 keeping the rest of my system and intending on adding a Napsc.  I first listened with just the pre/power leaving the FlatCap off and the Bass was big, yes a bit bloated but more powerful, somehow the change of pre gave my system more power??? I then connected the FlatCap and it improved slightly then about a week later I added the Napsc and it fell into place a bit more.  I cannot afford a HiCap DR right now so as a stopgap I have added a temporary 3rd Party power supply and to be honest It is about the same as the with the FlatCap so I'm expecting something better when I do finally attach a HiCap Dr and replace the 150 with a 200.  In Summary the change has not been huge but then I am only halfway along my intended upgrade path and by only changing a pre (Im not counting the change of psu) it has improved the sound of my system  and what I do have is more Bass and I love Bass! 

GraemeH posted:

I found the 202/Napsc/HCDR a shade more resolving than SN2/HCDR. It made me hear what was missing, particularly on live recordings.

G

We often read about folks saying amp A sounds better than amp B or "I prefer this over that" etc. There are rarely descriptions on why A is better than B or vice versa.

The post above is useful as it has described on the differences between the 202/Napsc/HCDR and Supernait2/HCDR. In the context of this thread, I haven't had the opportunity to compare the 122x/150x with the Supernait2 hence I cannot offer any insight on the matter. Though I note that there are several comparisons between the 202/200 and the Supernait 2 with comments about the Supernait 2 sounding *better* than the 202/200, hence the conclusion that the Supernait 2 would be a better amp than the 122x/150x as the latter is below the 202/200 in the hierarchy.

From the numerous comments on this forum, the following (in brief) can be deduced (detailed analysis is not possible as I have not listened to the Supernait2):-

202/200(+HCDR) - More lean, detailed and analytical than the Supernait2. May appear bright to some ears (or systems).

Supernait 2 (+HCDR) - More organic and rounded presentation, warmer sounding than the 202/200.

In the end, a *better* sound or amplification, either the 202/200 or the Supernait2, may be influenced by listening preferences and system/speaker matching, or a bit of both.

This thread got a bit sidetracked though as the OP wants to upgrade from the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2 and not the 202/200 to the Supernait 2(or vice versa).

The definitive answer will be arrived at by the inky one pootling off to the local friendly Hifi emporium and borrowing a Supernait2 to try at home. 

ink04 posted:

Would upgrading to a Supernait 2 from a 122x/150x be a considerable upgrade. There is a huge difference in price so I would expect it to provide a significant benefits. It would be ideal to be able to hear one in my system at some point but before then I thought I would ask the forum first.

The power rating is higher in the SN2 than my current set up but would upgrading to an SN2 be worthwhile and in what areas would I see the benefits.

I have a flatcap and use a CD5x and an LP12. 

 

I have had the pleasure of comparing a lot of different Naim amplification setups...as I have access to more Naim than most dream of (as a Naim dealer) - to put it simple the best way to determine if the "upgrade" to the SN2 would be worth your money and a step up from the 122x/155x combo...as mentioned in some earlier replies...have a listen if possible at home or your local dealer.  Some improvements you might expect to hear is a refinement of your music - the sound stage should open up and become more vivid (increasing the ability to place where each member of a band is on stage); the low end grunt and control of low frequency response should also improve with the higher current the SN2 produces over the 150x.  The fine detailing in the high and mid frequencies will also increase giving more timbral accuracy - as we move up with ever better hi-fi kit, as you are planning on doing by going up to the SN2, it starts to become about the subtleties that the amplification (pre/power or integrated) can draw from the source, which can be overlooked/muddled/washed-out with lesser quality amplification.  I hope this helps.  Any questions feel free to ask.  

All the best, 

Joe of Hi-Fi Corner Edinburgh 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The definitive answer will be arrived at by the inky one pootling off to the local friendly Hifi emporium and borrowing a Supernait2 to try at home. 

+1 indeed

Joe Hi-Fi Corner posted:

ink04 posted:

Would upgrading to a Supernait 2 from a 122x/150x be a considerable upgrade. There is a huge difference in price so I would expect it to provide a significant benefits. It would be ideal to be able to hear one in my system at some point but before then I thought I would ask the forum first.

The power rating is higher in the SN2 than my current set up but would upgrading to an SN2 be worthwhile and in what areas would I see the benefits.

I have a flatcap and use a CD5x and an LP12. 

 

I have had the pleasure of comparing a lot of different Naim amplification setups...as I have access to more Naim than most dream of (as a Naim dealer) - to put it simple the best way to determine if the "upgrade" to the SN2 would be worth your money and a step up from the 122x/155x combo...as mentioned in some earlier replies...have a listen if possible at home or your local dealer.  Some improvements you might expect to hear is a refinement of your music - the sound stage should open up and become more vivid (increasing the ability to place where each member of a band is on stage); the low end grunt and control of low frequency response should also improve with the higher current the SN2 produces over the 150x.  The fine detailing in the high and mid frequencies will also increase giving more timbral accuracy - as we move up with ever better hi-fi kit, as you are planning on doing by going up to the SN2, it starts to become about the subtleties that the amplification (pre/power or integrated) can draw from the source, which can be overlooked/muddled/washed-out with lesser quality amplification.  I hope this helps.  Any questions feel free to ask.  

All the best, 

Joe of Hi-Fi Corner Edinburgh 

Nice post. Certainly useful. Thanks.

I would be interested to know, in detail, on the effects of the Hicap DR on Naim amps, specifically the NAC202 and NAC 282. At the risk of highjacking this thread, perhaps this could apply to any Naim amp.

Areas of concern are as follows:-

1. I suspect the Hicap DR will reduce the brightness or hardness in the music by producing a smoother sound with both voices or instruments. In the process of doing so, will the highs be (slightly) rolled off with the removal or reduction of the excess energy / rough edges.

2. Any perceived changes in other areas such as bass, rhythmic pace etc. I expect the subtleties and refinement in the music to improve with music sounding more refined and sophisticated ie. cymbals(hi-hat) decay into the background rather than a just one clash etc.

ryder. posted:

GraemeH posted:

I found the 202/Napsc/HCDR a shade more resolving than SN2/HCDR. It made me hear what was missing, particularly on live recordings.

G

We often read about folks saying amp A sounds better than amp B or "I prefer this over that" etc. There are rarely descriptions on why A is better than B or vice versa.

The post above is useful as it has described on the differences between the 202/Napsc/HCDR and Supernait2/HCDR. In the context of this thread, I haven't had the opportunity to compare the 122x/150x with the Supernait2 hence I cannot offer any insight on the matter. Though I note that there are several comparisons between the 202/200 and the Supernait 2 with comments about the Supernait 2 sounding *better* than the 202/200, hence the conclusion that the Supernait 2 would be a better amp than the 122x/150x as the latter is below the 202/200 in the hierarchy.

From the numerous comments on this forum, the following (in brief) can be deduced (detailed analysis is not possible as I have not listened to the Supernait2):-

202/200(+HCDR) - More lean, detailed and analytical than the Supernait2. May appear bright to some ears (or systems).

Supernait 2 (+HCDR) - More organic and rounded presentation, warmer sounding than the 202/200.

In the end, a *better* sound or amplification, either the 202/200 or the Supernait2, may be influenced by listening preferences and system/speaker matching, or a bit of both.

This thread got a bit sidetracked though as the OP wants to upgrade from the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2 and not the 202/200 to the Supernait 2(or vice versa).

It's funny, these preconceived notions that are based on the posts of others and not necessarily based on ones own actual listening results or facts.

The exact same results could be deduced about the 282-250-2 combo compared to the 200-202 , if you base it on most of the comments from what has been written on this forum. The 200-202 combo is leaner, faster, more analytical, etc. The 282-250-2,  rounder, slower, more organic, more bassy, etc. Personally I think it's more of a case of wishful thinking by 200-202 owners, but that's neither here nor there.

My descriptions on this forum are from my own listening results, and my decision to purchase a piece of kit is based on my own ears and not someone else's opinions, as is the case with so many.  I'm sure the varying results, or impressions, could partially be explained by different rooms, speaker/amp matching, etc. But I also think others opinions play a huge part in purchase decisions, kind of sad really.

Personally I would not describe the SN2 as rounder or warmer than the 200-202, it's presentation is different, to me it sounds more powerful, which it is, faster sounding bass, bass has more impact, some will prefer it and some wont, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it comes down to what one thinks is more right.

The reason why the 200-202 comparo was brought into the conversation was that if the SN2 could possibly be preferred  to that combo , it most certainly could be a significant upgrade compared to the lesser separate combo the OP was inquiring about.

Ryder, to your query on the HiCapDR... Based on my ownership and listening experiences, for me the HiCapDR is an absolute gem on the bottom half of the Naim classic series NAC portfolio. The difference to me is marked over the non DR.. and the biggest change for me was with the 202 as opposed to 282 although the latter was significant too.

I found the HiCapDR on the 202 opened out that preamp... the tendency for the 202 to sound a bit too warm and safe disappeared with more resolving upper mids and highs.. there was a bit more depth to the music and insight. With the 200 the 202 / HiCapDR was quite enjoyable ... But for me stay away from the 250 with it.. For some reason I found the 202 and 250 in all guises I came across just didn't work.. Result was a relatively lifeless leaden sound.

The 282 is quite a different beast and really needs the HiCapDR.. It is significantly more resolving and consequently more pacey, vivid and insightful than the 202. The DR on the HiCap seems to remove a slight lower mid hump and tightens the sound and imaging. It is quite an energetic performer and so tends to be less tolerant of sharper or lessser quality digital sources by disproportionately focusing on their weaknesses. The DR encourages this further.. But with a quality source you get great music. 

Have a listen yourself, and let us know if you agree. BTW hardness or brittleness are unlikely to be affected and is more likely the effects of RFI, poor sources, or poor room/speaker matching

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ryder, to your query on the HiCapDR... Based on my ownership and listening experiences, for me the HiCapDR is an absolute gem on the bottom half of the Naim classic series NAC portfolio. The difference to me is marked over the non DR.. and the biggest change for me was with the 202 as opposed to 282 although the latter was significant too.

I found the HiCapDR on the 202 opened out that preamp... the tendency for the 202 to sound a bit too warm and safe disappeared with more resolving upper mids and highs.. there was a bit more depth to the music and insight. With the 200 the 202 / HiCapDR was quite enjoyable ... But for me stay away from the 250 with it.. For some reason I found the 202 and 250 in all guises I came across just didn't work.. Result was a relatively lifeless leaden sound.

The 282 is quite a different beast and really needs the HiCapDR.. It is significantly more resolving and consequently mor vivid and insightful than the 202. The DR on the HiCap seems to remove a slight lower mid hump and tightens the sound and imaging. It is quite an energetic performer and so tends to be less tolerant of sharper or lessser quality digital sources by disproportionately fouccusing on their weaknesses. The DR encourages this further.. But with a quality source you get great music. 

Have a listen yourself, and let us know if you agree. BTW hardness or brittleness are unlikely to be affected and is more likely the effects of RFI, poor sources, or poor room/speaker matching

Simon

 

Thanks for the information Simon. Much appreciated. Things have just got slightly complicated with your post. It appears that the Hicap DR is almost mandatory with both 202 and 282. My problem is I already have a non-Naim PSU with the 202, and I have the new 282 on the way. I may eventually end up with a Hicap DR for either one of the preamps, but certainly not two (I am planning to keep the 202 for a 2nd system although I am not ruling out the possibility of selling it for an integrated to minimise box count). If I retain the 202, I will eventually have 3 to 4 boxes of amplification in a system (pre, power, PSU, NAPSC). Or I could just live with the 202/200/NAPSC without the Hicap DR since it will be used in a lesser system with lesser speakers. Having said that, your impression on the huge improvement the Hicap DR has brought to the 202 is interesting. 

In the event I get the Hicap DR into the system in the near future, I will compare it with the non-Naim PSU and swap them between systems, the 202 and 282 presuming I'm going to run both.

In response to the issue of hardness of brittleness, in my experience the PSU has got something to do with it. Currently I have the non-Naim PSU on the 202 and although it gets the music 90% right in removing the hardness / brightness in the music, the absence of rough edges seems to give the impression of rolled-off highs. The changes are not day and night but appreciable nonetheless. The energy or *raw quality* appears to have been "smoothened" by the PSU. I have posted my detailed impressions on Pinkfish and you might want to check it out.

I am quite sure the 282 will live up to the claims in being a "better" amp than the 202. I hope that it will be more dynamic, transparent and detailed than the 202, giving more depth and insight to the music.