From 122x/150x to Supernait 2

Ryder I suspect you won't be disappointed with the 282. I gets a tick from me on all those adjectives you list. 

Regarding brittleness and hardness... you appear to interchange that with brightness which for me is something completely different and can be a great positive.. So perhaps we are talking about something different. Indeed you want a system that delivers the rough edges when in the recording not add to them or take them away... you might find the 202 slightly removes some of these whereas as the 282 ever so slightly enhances those edges.. but then I think that gives the 282 its enjoyable and distinctive performance.

BTW I really would recommend a Naim PSU for the NACc, there is always the used market. The PSU is such a crucial part to the overall NAC performance, I would have a constant nagging doubt I was getting short changed with a non Naim component..

badlands posted:

ryder. posted:

GraemeH posted:

I found the 202/Napsc/HCDR a shade more resolving than SN2/HCDR. It made me hear what was missing, particularly on live recordings.

G

We often read about folks saying amp A sounds better than amp B or "I prefer this over that" etc. There are rarely descriptions on why A is better than B or vice versa.

The post above is useful as it has described on the differences between the 202/Napsc/HCDR and Supernait2/HCDR. In the context of this thread, I haven't had the opportunity to compare the 122x/150x with the Supernait2 hence I cannot offer any insight on the matter. Though I note that there are several comparisons between the 202/200 and the Supernait 2 with comments about the Supernait 2 sounding *better* than the 202/200, hence the conclusion that the Supernait 2 would be a better amp than the 122x/150x as the latter is below the 202/200 in the hierarchy.

From the numerous comments on this forum, the following (in brief) can be deduced (detailed analysis is not possible as I have not listened to the Supernait2):-

202/200(+HCDR) - More lean, detailed and analytical than the Supernait2. May appear bright to some ears (or systems).

Supernait 2 (+HCDR) - More organic and rounded presentation, warmer sounding than the 202/200.

In the end, a *better* sound or amplification, either the 202/200 or the Supernait2, may be influenced by listening preferences and system/speaker matching, or a bit of both.

This thread got a bit sidetracked though as the OP wants to upgrade from the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2 and not the 202/200 to the Supernait 2(or vice versa).

It's funny, these preconceived notions that are based on the posts of others and not necessarily based on ones own actual listening results or facts.

The exact same results could be deduced about the 282-250-2 combo compared to the 200-202 , if you base it on most of the comments from what has been written on this forum. The 200-202 combo is leaner, faster, more analytical, etc. The 282-250-2,  rounder, slower, more organic, more bassy, etc. Personally I think it's more of a case of wishful thinking by 200-202 owners, but that's neither here nor there.

My descriptions on this forum are from my own listening results, and my decision to purchase a piece of kit is based on my own ears and not someone else's opinions, as is the case with so many.  I'm sure the varying results, or impressions, could partially be explained by different rooms, speaker/amp matching, etc. But I also think others opinions play a huge part in purchase decisions, kind of sad really.

Personally I would not describe the SN2 as rounder or warmer than the 200-202, it's presentation is different, to me it sounds more powerful, which it is, faster sounding bass, bass has more impact, some will prefer it and some wont, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it comes down to what one thinks is more right.

The reason why the 200-202 comparo was brought into the conversation was that if the SN2 could possibly be preferred  to that combo , it most certainly could be a significant upgrade compared to the lesser separate combo the OP was inquiring about.

Thanks for the post. I agree it is best to listen and judge on our own rather than drawing experiences from others. It's not only due to listening preferences which vary across the board but description on forums in words which may not accurately translate to what we hear with our ears. Although one may have used the appropriate terms, they may get translated differently by another person (it is often difficult to describe sound with words).

Preconceived ideas formed based on experiences from others, although not entirely useful, can be used as a guide. If given a choice, most will choose not to follow opinions from others. However, not everyone is fortunate enough to have access to home demos. At the place where I live, home demos are not possible. To listen to a certain piece of gear, one will have to commit to a purchase, even though that means buying the wrong gear. Experiences from others can be used as a rough guide to reduce costly mistakes although they are not entirely fool-proof.

I appreciate your experience where you found the Supernait2 to be more powerful with faster and more impactful bass than the 202/200. Sounds like that's the sound that i prefer (which means that the Supernait2 sounds better than the 202/200 in our context). We are in agreement that it is all subjective, which means that there will be others who might prefer the 202/200's sound over the Supernait2 implying that the 202/200 is a *better* amp than the Supernait2.

ryder. posted:

Joe Hi-Fi Corner posted:

ink04 posted:

Would upgrading to a Supernait 2 from a 122x/150x be a considerable upgrade. There is a huge difference in price so I would expect it to provide a significant benefits. It would be ideal to be able to hear one in my system at some point but before then I thought I would ask the forum first.

The power rating is higher in the SN2 than my current set up but would upgrading to an SN2 be worthwhile and in what areas would I see the benefits.

I have a flatcap and use a CD5x and an LP12. 

 

I have had the pleasure of comparing a lot of different Naim amplification setups...as I have access to more Naim than most dream of (as a Naim dealer) - to put it simple the best way to determine if the "upgrade" to the SN2 would be worth your money and a step up from the 122x/155x combo...as mentioned in some earlier replies...have a listen if possible at home or your local dealer.  Some improvements you might expect to hear is a refinement of your music - the sound stage should open up and become more vivid (increasing the ability to place where each member of a band is on stage); the low end grunt and control of low frequency response should also improve with the higher current the SN2 produces over the 150x.  The fine detailing in the high and mid frequencies will also increase giving more timbral accuracy - as we move up with ever better hi-fi kit, as you are planning on doing by going up to the SN2, it starts to become about the subtleties that the amplification (pre/power or integrated) can draw from the source, which can be overlooked/muddled/washed-out with lesser quality amplification.  I hope this helps.  Any questions feel free to ask.  

All the best, 

Joe of Hi-Fi Corner Edinburgh 

Nice post. Certainly useful. Thanks.

I would be interested to know, in detail, on the effects of the Hicap DR on Naim amps, specifically the NAC202 and NAC 282. At the risk of highjacking this thread, perhaps this could apply to any Naim amp.

Areas of concern are as follows:-

1. I suspect the Hicap DR will reduce the brightness or hardness in the music by producing a smoother sound with both voices or instruments. In the process of doing so, will the highs be (slightly) rolled off with the removal or reduction of the excess energy / rough edges.

2. Any perceived changes in other areas such as bass, rhythmic pace etc. I expect the subtleties and refinement in the music to improve with music sounding more refined and sophisticated ie. cymbals(hi-hat) decay into the background rather than a just one clash etc.

 

 

Ryder, 

Without getting into which amplifier (pre and/or power) is better than the other - it comes down to what one can afford and what one hears that makes an amplifier worth our hard earned money - so we'll leave that aside for now...

Addressing your concerns, in a nice roundabout way, I always like to think of the preamplifier as the brain of the system drawing information in from the source and then telling the body (power amplifier) what to do with said information. Using this analogy, I like to think of a PSU like the food a brain needs to function; so a person who eats an average breakfast, maybe a bit of coffee, an egg, a doughnut, etc, etc, where the brain can function but is not at the top of its performance level - the stock power supplies in the 202 or the 282 (or the SN2, etc, etc) are able to function in a very good manner and for the most part are completely enjoyable to listen to. However, when a person eats a breakfast rich of "brain foods" (omega-3, wholegrain, blueberries, nuts, B-vitamins, etc, etc), a person is more alert, can function more efficiently, can focus on tasks, etc, etc; this is what happens when adding an external PSU to the mix, like a Hi-Cap (what ever version one might have, the DR being the latest and greatest by Naim, and it is an improvement on previous versions)...The harshness and brightness seem to evaporate, not where they are rolled off necessarily, but where they are more accurately portrayed and in doing so are more natural/organic in sound/presentation. The energy only seems "lost" because the high frequencies are no longer brought to the attention of the listener due to the preamplifier's ability to present them with more subtleties and delicacy as we would hear naturally...this then effects the way we hear the other frequency ranges. By giving the preamplifier a better source of food (external PSU) it is able to articulate the information it is being given by the source and this then is reflected in how it tells the body (power amplifier) to perform, and one of the many improvements is the rhythmic pace the low frequencies are represented in playback.  And yes, the entire dynamic range and its refinement  in the presentation is improved upon...

I hope this long winded roundabout explanation is of help and answered (most likely indirectly) some of the concerns you address...at the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves why a company like Naim (one of the best known British hi-fi manufacturers) would have external power supplies as an upgrade path and why those said products cost so much...if they didn't improve upon the sound, then people would have called them out long ago... 

Sorry, I just re-read this reply and it is a bit cheese...my apologies in advance...

All the best, 

Joe of Hi-Fi Corner Edinburgh. 

At the end of the day, while analogies with breakfast or whatever can be helpful, the way to hear what a power supply does is to listen.

Hungryhalibut posted:

At the end of the day, while analogies with breakfast or whatever can be helpful, the way to hear what a power supply does is to listen.

Took the words out of my mouth whilst eating my breakfast.

At half past ten? On a school day? Standards are slipping...

No kids, and self employed is the key.... Also i've just returned from a 9 day photo shoot in the Scottish Highlands where i was working from 4.20am to 10pm straight every day!

OK, you are let off!

Joe Hi-Fi Corner posted:

  Ryder, 

Without getting into which amplifier (pre and/or power) is better than the other - it comes down to what one can afford and what one hears that makes an amplifier worth our hard earned money - so we'll leave that aside for now...

Addressing your concerns, in a nice roundabout way, I always like to think of the preamplifier as the brain of the system drawing information in from the source and then telling the body (power amplifier) what to do with said information. Using this analogy, I like to think of a PSU like the food a brain needs to function; so a person who eats an average breakfast, maybe a bit of coffee, an egg, a doughnut, etc, etc, where the brain can function but is not at the top of its performance level - the stock power supplies in the 202 or the 282 (or the SN2, etc, etc) are able to function in a very good manner and for the most part are completely enjoyable to listen to. However, when a person eats a breakfast rich of "brain foods" (omega-3, wholegrain, blueberries, nuts, B-vitamins, etc, etc), a person is more alert, can function more efficiently, can focus on tasks, etc, etc; this is what happens when adding an external PSU to the mix, like a Hi-Cap (what ever version one might have, the DR being the latest and greatest by Naim, and it is an improvement on previous versions)...The harshness and brightness seem to evaporate, not where they are rolled off necessarily, but where they are more accurately portrayed and in doing so are more natural/organic in sound/presentation. The energy only seems "lost" because the high frequencies are no longer brought to the attention of the listener due to the preamplifier's ability to present them with more subtleties and delicacy as we would hear naturally...this then effects the way we hear the other frequency ranges. By giving the preamplifier a better source of food (external PSU) it is able to articulate the information it is being given by the source and this then is reflected in how it tells the body (power amplifier) to perform, and one of the many improvements is the rhythmic pace the low frequencies are represented in playback.  And yes, the entire dynamic range and its refinement  in the presentation is improved upon...

I hope this long winded roundabout explanation is of help and answered (most likely indirectly) some of the concerns you address...at the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves why a company like Naim (one of the best known British hi-fi manufacturers) would have external power supplies as an upgrade path and why those said products cost so much...if they didn't improve upon the sound, then people would have called them out long ago... 

Sorry, I just re-read this reply and it is a bit cheese...my apologies in advance...

All the best, 

Joe of Hi-Fi Corner Edinburgh. 

Thanks for the post. Nice analogy with wholegrain and blueberries! Though you have managed to capture the differences that exist with the addition of the PSU. Good to know that the Hicap DR will not roll off the highs while in the process of reducing the harshness which in turn produces a more natural/organic sound or presentation. My experience with a non-Naim PSU is it slightly rolls off the highs although it did bring a more natural and organic quality to the sound.

It is good to note that the entire dynamic range and rhythmic pace in the low frequencies are also improved with the addition of the Hicap DR. I can imagine the music to sound more dynamic with the improved pace in the bass region as it is predominantly the bass beat that carries the music.

Cheers.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ryder I suspect you won't be disappointed with the 282. I gets a tick from me on all those adjectives you list. 

Regarding brittleness and hardness... you appear to interchange that with brightness which for me is something completely different and can be a great positive.. So perhaps we are talking about something different. Indeed you want a system that delivers the rough edges when in the recording not add to them or take them away... you might find the 202 slightly removes some of these whereas as the 282 ever so slightly enhances those edges.. but then I think that gives the 282 its enjoyable and distinctive performance.

BTW I really would recommend a Naim PSU for the NACc, there is always the used market. The PSU is such a crucial part to the overall NAC performance, I would have a constant nagging doubt I was getting short changed with a non Naim component..

Thanks. That's refreshing to hear. I want more of the rough edges where the 202 may be slightly lacking when compared to the 282. At any rate, the non-Naim PSU may be the culprit in taking off the rough edges, albeit just slightly, causing the sound to appear slightly smoother which to my ears sound rolled-off(the high frequencies) / less exciting. I am still unsure about my evaluation. A proper comparison with the Hicap DR will enable me to determine whether the non-Naim PSU is robbing too much rough edges from the music. Don't get me wrong, the overall presentation with the non-Naim PSU is still good, but there is still something that is missing.. I need to get the Hicap DR into the system to find out. The high frequencies of the 202 (with the non-Naim PSU) although now appear more refined do not seem to have the extension with the rough edges *smoothened*. 

I regard brightness as piercing highs. The system shows as slight brightness without the PSU. Brightness is different from hardness and brittleness, but in the context of my system and experience, the PSU not only reduced the hardness and brittleness of the 202/200 but also brightness as well.

ink04 posted:

Would upgrading to a Supernait 2 from a 122x/150x be a considerable upgrade. There is a huge difference in price so I would expect it to provide a significant benefits. It would be ideal to be able to hear one in my system at some point but before then I thought I would ask the forum first.

The power rating is higher in the SN2 than my current set up but would upgrading to an SN2 be worthwhile and in what areas would I see the benefits.

I have a flatcap and use a CD5x and an LP12. 

 

You've a nice set. A pair of Credos or Arivas would complement the existing electronics far more than the Proacs you list, imo. And for a great deal less than even a used SN2.

C.

Indeed, there's a lovely looking pair of Credos on the fishy place for £300, which is a bargain if ever I saw one. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Ryder I suspect you won't be disappointed with the 282. I gets a tick from me on all those adjectives you list. 

Regarding brittleness and hardness... you appear to interchange that with brightness which for me is something completely different and can be a great positive.. So perhaps we are talking about something different. Indeed you want a system that delivers the rough edges when in the recording not add to them or take them away... you might find the 202 slightly removes some of these whereas as the 282 ever so slightly enhances those edges.. but then I think that gives the 282 its enjoyable and distinctive performance.

BTW I really would recommend a Naim PSU for the NACc, there is always the used market. The PSU is such a crucial part to the overall NAC performance, I would have a constant nagging doubt I was getting short changed with a non Naim component..

To the OP - sorry for highjacking this thread again.

I have had a pretty thorough listen again today. In summary, the Naim amps (202/200) surely sound better with the PSU on board. Music just sounds more coherent, cleaner and more refined. There is definitely less smearing as music sounds tidier. As a result instrument placement is more precise.

On top of that, the sound of certain instruments such as percussion has better clarity and tonality. Sounds more like the real thing as the sound decays into the background as opposed to a simple one-clash. There is more air around instruments which adds to the atmosphere.

The slight smoothening of the rough edges are rather negligible as the improvements across the board have outweighed this seemingly slight anomaly.

I have thought about the term "brightness" which I have used to describe on the Naim amps earlier without the PSU in place. I have figured out a better way to describe on this brightness. This perceived brightness is mainly due to the sharp hissing sibilants as in "s" or "z" at the end of the pronunciation. The intensity of the "s" is sharp and prominent, and this has caused the brightness. With the PSU, this sibilance is somewhat gone with voices taking a more organic and palpable feel.

Now, on the importance of the Hicap DR. It's a matter of time before I end up with one in the system. With the current PSU, I would say differences or improvements are tangible. The PSU is quite an essential piece of kit that really elevates the system to a higher level of sophistication. For this reason, I can see the relevance of the Hicap DR recommendation to any Naim-based system that is able to receive one.

RYDER - how is the above going to help with the decision making for the perspective owner of SN2?

May I suggest you start another post, where you share your findings with regards to the amps you have listneded to?

Adam

This really depends on where the OP wishes to end up. If it's with an integrated then SN2 and be happy.  If on the other hand he's intending this as a platform for further upgrades I'd recommend a 282.  

Good luck,

Lindsay

Adam Zielinski posted:

RYDER - how is the above going to help with the decision making for the perspective owner of SN2?

May I suggest you start another post, where you share your findings with regards to the amps you have listneded to?

Adam

Apologies Adam. The discussion strayed from the original intent as some forum members brought the 202/200 into the mix. On top of that, I cannot start a dedicated thread to share my impressions as the PSU I have is a non-Naim PSU. It is against the policy of the forum to discuss on that. Having said that, all is well as I am done with my sharing.

From all contributions here it seems that only Joe of Hi-Fi Corner who has listened and/or compared the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2. All other members  appear to have experience with the 202/200 and Supernait 2 only and not the 122x/150x.

What makes you say that Ryder? I clearly stated that the SN2 was much better than the 122x/150x. I have had both here at the same time, i have also had the 152/155xs and it's also way behind IMO.

gary yeowell posted:

What makes you say that Ryder? I clearly stated that the SN2 was much better than the 122x/150x. I have had both here at the same time, i have also had the 152/155xs and it's also way behind IMO.

Sorry Gary. I missed your post.

No worries!!

ryder. posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

RYDER - how is the above going to help with the decision making for the perspective owner of SN2?

May I suggest you start another post, where you share your findings with regards to the amps you have listneded to?

Adam

Apologies Adam. The discussion strayed from the original intent as some forum members brought the 202/200 into the mix. On top of that, I cannot start a dedicated thread to share my impressions as the PSU I have is a non-Naim PSU. It is against the policy of the forum to discuss on that. Having said that, all is well as I am done with my sharing.

From all contributions here it seems that only Joe of Hi-Fi Corner who has listened and/or compared the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2. All other members  appear to have experience with the 202/200 and Supernait 2 only and not the 122x/150x.

No worries... 

ryder. posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

RYDER - how is the above going to help with the decision making for the perspective owner of SN2?

May I suggest you start another post, where you share your findings with regards to the amps you have listneded to?

Adam

Apologies Adam. The discussion strayed from the original intent as some forum members brought the 202/200 into the mix. On top of that, I cannot start a dedicated thread to share my impressions as the PSU I have is a non-Naim PSU. It is against the policy of the forum to discuss on that. Having said that, all is well as I am done with my sharing.

From all contributions here it seems that only Joe of Hi-Fi Corner who has listened and/or compared the 122x/150x to the Supernait 2. All other members  appear to have experience with the 202/200 and Supernait 2 only and not the 122x/150x.

Ryder, I have not listened to the SN2 , but I have certainly enjoyed my listening experiences with the 122x/150x 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...98#56475980548292598

Any hint from the OP as to what might happen next?

C.

Mayor West posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I think it is more of an issue that the 122x/150x is, by virtue of desgn, going to outperform other integrated amplification options in its price point and provide some flexibility that an integrated cannot.

Comparing it directly to a SN2 just because it is a seperate pre/power is probably not going to be meaningful. I would also expect the SN2 to come out way ahead. Though saying that, I would find it interesting to see what a current 152XS/155XS is capable of nect to a SN2 and then throw a FlatcapXS into the picture.

Agreed. Personally I preferred the Nait XS to the 152XS/155XS. 

Ryder, quoted above was my offering. I found SN2 a big step up from Nait XS so hopefully this can assist in your dilemma. 

I think most agree the SN2 is more accomplished - a winner if you like its presentation.  A digital source upgrade would follow, however, so budget for that as well.  INK has a well balanced system now (on the Naim side).  If there's worry about financing a whole new upgrade cycle, changing the speakers for something that's a little easier for the 150 to handle (and there's lots of excellent choices) is the cheapest/easiest solution.

Christopher_M posted:

Any hint from the OP as to what might happen next?

C.

The replies have convinced me that the SN2 will be better than my 122x/150x . I will try and and get a demo of the SN2 to compare to my existing system at home to see if the upgrade would be worthwhile.

Since making some enquiries about upgrading I am surprised at the low values of my existing 122x/150x are likely to fetch second hand. I may be wrong and may be surprised at the second hand value. 

I hope to hear the SN2 in my system soon.