NDX support for 24/192 via UPnP?
Posted by: Hook on 01 July 2011
Would appreciate an update on this enhancement from Richard, Dave Dever or Naim.
I am currently auditioning an NDX at home, and this is an important feature for me because I have a growing library of 24/192 FLAC files created from vinyl recordings.
Was just informed by member Sbilotta that:
"...During the last NDX chat event it was specified that the NDX is optimized for 16/44 playback, but will play 24/96. It was also said that 24/192 will probably come in the (near?) future via sw upgrade..."
Currently, the NDX simply rejects 24/192 as an unsupported format. Asset offers a feature to downsample to 24/48, but this seems like quite a large compromise to have to make!
Also, AMA points out:
"...uPnP is not limited to 96 kHz and Linn streamers happily stream 24/192 through wired local network with no single problem..."
So far, this is the only issue I have with regards to the NDX, and am otherwise truly enjoying my home audition. If I could get some reassurance that 24/192 support can be accomplished with a firmware update (and will not require a hardware update or, perish the thought, a whole new platform), then I am pretty sure that the NDX will have found a new home! Otherwise, it will probably make sense for me to audition an ADS.
Would really appreciate hearing from one of you guys. Would also hope to hear that the development of this firmware update is proceeding at a good pace, and can be expected sooner rather than later.
Thanks very much!
Hook
Weird - I was under the impression it already does support 24/192.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Weird - I was under the impression it already does support 24/192.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Hi Frank -
It does through its S/PDIF input, but not over the network via UPnP (where it is, for some reason, currently limited to 24/96).
Hook
In my experience, 24/192 provides a rather subtle improvement over 24/96 -- not as big as the leap from 16/96 upto 24/96. But this possibly happens because my system 282/250.2 can not reveal all the nuances.
Linn DS streamers are optimized for hi-res playback. AFAIK both ADS and KDS permanently upsample the income bitstream to 24/192 and their Wolfson chip is voiced for 24/192 mode.
This gives a sweet analogue-type sound even on the 16/44 rips of old CDs (exactly the point where KDS has seriously outperformed my nDAC/XPS).
NDX afaik does not do upsampling and was optimized for 16/44 playback. Going onto 24/192 terrain is a challenge as it's quite tough processing which needs new software and new power consumption and possibly the whole lot of new chips including CPU. It will take some time but I'm sure there is no rocket science in this and Naim will pick it up very quickly.
Given the fact that the most of modern uPnP serves can dispatch 24/192 and capacity of modern networks is more than enough for 24/192 (5 Mb/s) and given the fact that standalone Naim DAC and NDX's built-in DAC both are capable to convert 24/192 bitstream which I tested personally on my own nDAC -- I come to conclusion that NDX limitation by 24/96 is either a software problem or possibly a combination of chip/performance and SW problem. Bad for Naim if the latter is the case otherwise the upgrade will be just a SW patch (still with a number of annoying iterations like it's happening now with nDAC ).
It was stated clearly by NDX designers, that 192 was deliberately avoided in order to optimize for 44.1, which is, I think, also a marketing decision: To make the sound as appealing to the most frequent users (44.1) as possible at the beginning, and also to get the best initial test reports. 192 upgrade will cause a slight sacrifice in sq of 44.1 apparently; so I would rather if it would be a separate and optional upgrade.
Hook, You have of course nothing to lose by auditioning the ADS. Linn cleverly added a spdif output recently to allow free dac selection.
I would like to remind you that, for 192 files, the best alternative in Naim range is HDX at the moment. It also detects and plays all music files on the ethernet network, although not a UPnP device. According to my experience it does not lag behind NDX in sq when playing music files from the network, when both are connected to the same external dac. The only problem is that you may feel it is redundant for your purposes to have a ripping machine in your system, however good it is.
Paul, ads can be used as a 24/192 streamer into nDAC/555PS with all prat, dynamics and emotion back on the list
Hi Paul -
Thanks a lot for the reply.
I cannot disagree with your design decision to optimize the NDX for 16/44.1. And I am respectful of Aysil's concern that NDX support for higher resolutions can not come at a sacrifice to its wonderful 16/44.1 sound quality.
I also understand that it is difficult for you make future commitments in a public forum like this. But I am sure I am not alone in wanting to believe that the NDX is a good long-term investment! Delivering on the much needed improvements to N-Stream, as well as proper support for higher resolutions, would be the perfect proof points. I can only hope that these enhancements happen sooner rather than later. After all, N-Stream's shortcomings are very well-documented, and we can buy 24/176.4 downloads of the Rolling Stones...today!
I do appreciate your reassurance. As a customer, it is always scary buying on faith. After all, the NDX, is not exactly inexpensive. And, unfortunately, too many of us have bought on faith before (not necessarily from Naim), and not exactly been rewarded for those purchase decisions.
I really appreciate you listening. Thanks a lot for understanding my concerns.
ATB.
Hook
@David - Do you think the same will apply to the Uniti & Qute?
Tog
I think the point is not that 192 can dazzle us against 96 in musical qualities.
I believe that existing jitter is not low enough to follow the timing of 192 and recover all bits of 24.
Possibly 20/88 is the maximum what modern consumer processors/clocks can handle.
Besides, even if you manage to run processing in extremely high speed and accuracy, and handle 24/192 on the fly -- you will still be downgraded by the speed and dynamic range limitation of D/A converter and power supply. Which obviously does not mean that the future solutions will not manage the problem in integrated way.
Well, the point is that some musical stuff is distributed today in 192 format and if my player (say NDX) can not play it in native format why doesn't it downsample on the fly (which is an easy and low energy/resources consumption procedure)?
It's not good that existing limitations of the Naim streamers push the users to downsample original tracks which are purchased in 192 format. Besides consumer hi-res is in its infancy and possibly the future players will manage to juice out more from 192 so that 192 will be more convincing comparing to 88.2/96.
We all want a kind of a time-proof solutions especially when it concerns the music library.
I'm sure there are. I'm listening to vinyls for the last 25 years. This year I'm upgrading my LP12 and I'm still buying LPs when I travel over the world.
I have also ripped my multi-thousand CD collection to HDD (the first CD was bought in late 80s) and enjoy the same bitstream as before but with a different renderer. And I'm still buying 16/44 both in CD and internet downloads until now.
Looks like a "time-proof" enough
Have made a decision to re-convert my DSD files to 24/88.1 and be done with it for the foreseeable. If things change, I still have my original DSD copies, and can convert to something different later if ever the need ever arises.
Have decided there is too just much to like about the NDX to get hung up on this -- the sound quality is so impressive! Two factors helped me reach this conclusion. First, there were some very thoughtful posts by Aleg, Simon and Patrick in the other thread (thanks again guys). And second, and more importantly, there was the look of delight on Mrs. Hook's face when I gave her the newly purchased iPad 2 running N-Stream last night. Yes, we all know that N-Stream needs smarter searching and playlists and so on. But when the Mrs. smiled and said "This is the first time I have ever felt like I could run the stereo system all by myself", the game was over for me.
I've been through the three combos of NDX/555PS, NDX->DAC/555PS and NDX/555PS->DAC using my C7's, and will share some thoughts later. Am in the process of installing and leveling the Ovator 400's right now, and am going to repeat those tests to see if the speaker choice makes a difference. The 400's have 120+ hours of burn-in using the Isotek System Enhancer cd which, if you believe the Hi-Fi News review, is equivalent to 240+ hours of burn-in using music. We'll see....
Hook
PS - Between the NDX, the 400's and the iPad 2, it is truly feels like Christmas in July at our home. Thanks to all of you for your patience -- I know I have been posting like an egomaniac here lately, but it is hard trying to suppress my excitement when so many positive things have are happening! So thanks again to all of you for your thoughts, advice and support -- they are very much appreciated.
Hook, am I missing something? You don't have NDX in your profile
Hook, am I missing something? You don't have NDX in your profile
Hi AMA -
Technically speaking, it is still just a loaner...
...but yes, resistance is futile...
Hook
Hook, with NDX can you browse the music in its original folders (like Windows Explorer) and play the tracks or folders by clicking a button in iPad?
Hi AMA -
Not sure if this is a function what Asset presents, or what N-Stream is capable of, but the answer is yes...for me. To browse folders, I selected:
1) Asset UPnP
2) Advanced Search
3) Folders & Filename Browsing
My folder structure is flat (FLAC CD RIPS/Artist/Album), so this doesn't help me much. But I could see how it would if you've put some effort into organizing by sub-folder.
Hook
Hook - good stuff. With your new 400s it would be interesting to see whether you prefer FLAC or WAV - or have no preference. Asset of course can help by transcoding if you prefer WAV.
Simon
Hi AMA -
Not sure if this is a function what Asset presents, or what N-Stream is capable of, but the answer is yes...for me. To browse folders, I selected:
1) Asset UPnP
2) Advanced Search
3) Folders & Filename Browsing
My folder structure is flat (FLAC CD RIPS/Artist/Album), so this doesn't help me much. But I could see how it would if you've put some effort into organizing by sub-folder.
Hook
Hi Hook, my Logitech Transporter is streaming music which is dispatched by Logitech Slim Server software installed on a dedicated PC.
Apart from various standard filters (like Artist/Albums/Recent/New etc.) it also features a "Music Folders" which allow me to browse the original file structure and this is surely the preferred way for me. I classify my music by certain folders with my own criteria and then split them into Artist/Album inside the folders. For example, I have Naim Label folder, Linn Records, Cesky records, FIM folder, MP3 folder, Kids Music folder, Chilly Lounge folder, AMA compilations folder, Test records folder, Audio Books folder, DJ mix folder, Ethnic folder, SoundTrack folder etc. Each of them contains Artist fodlers, and the Artists folder contains Year - Album folder of various (!!! genre.
My typical link may look like this: "\\AudioServer\audio\_NAIM LABEL\Thea Gilmore\2000 - The Lipstick Conspiracies\"
I keep a dedicated PC (named AudioServer which is physically a small Hewlett Packard laptop) running Logitech SlimServer software which provides a very comfortable interface to access my music library. With iPad I can browse the music in the way I like it and then play any separate track or the whole folder (which is normally an album) or play the whole Artist folder (with all albums in it) in one click!
Is that all possible with Asset uPnP and NDX?
I keep a dedicated PC (named AudioServer which is physically a small Hewlett Packard laptop) running Logitech SlimServer software which provides a very comfortable interface to access my music library. With iPad I can browse the music in the way I like it and then play any separate track or the whole folder (which is normally an album) or play the whole Artist folder (with all albums in it) in one click!
Is that all possible with Asset uPnP and NDX?
Hi AMA -
The short answer is yes: tree-walking works just fine.
The long answer depends on your definition of "comfortable interface". N-Stream has some well-documented (and hopefully, soon to be fixed) shortcomings: 1) searching that doesn't require walking back up and then down the music tree, 2) playlist support, 3) shows only time elapsed for current song, 4) no FF/RW. There may be other minor shortcomings as well, but none that really bug me.
One nice thing about UPnP being an open standard is that there are choices. If Asset falls behind one of the other servers, it is easy to switch. The only reason I am not using my current NAS's built-in server is that there is no option for transcoding to WAV on the fly. Also, there are other, more fully featured control point apps (eLyric, PlugPlayer, etc.). I hesitate to switch because I love that N-Stream can control my 252's volume (requires a 3.5mm-to-RCA cable), but I may consider using two apps together for a while until N-Stream catches up.
As you may recall, I am a computer guy, and had my PC server set up with JRMC 14. This setup was more than fine for my usability needs, but it was intimidating for Mrs. Hook. I installed Remote Desktop Connection on her notebook, and wrote down instructions for logging into the PC server and selecting music from JRMC. But TBH, I was constantly updating those notes as new variables arose. In fact, I kept doing so long after she lost interest!
From the view of someone who doesn't understand networks and operating systems, this setup simply had too many moving parts. The straw that broke the camel's back was when Windows 7 launched an automatic upgrade that turned the PC server's firewall back on. I had to drag out the keyboad and monitor, and it took me an entire Saturday morning to figure it out. And yes, I did turn off automatic updates after that!
So far, N-Stream and the NDX have been 100% reliable, and a doddle to use. Turn on the iPad, open N-Stream, play music. It is that easy. Mrs. Hook has fallen back in love with the setup (an important factor when negotiating whether or not to, say, buy a new set of Ovator 400's... )!
As a side benefit of setting up UPnP, I realized that my Denon AVR was a renderer as well, so am now easily able to play background music in our main room (where the TV and 5.1 sound system lives).
No idea whether moving from Slimserver to UPnP would bring you any similar benefits. For a long time, I convinced myself that Naim's ease-of-use was just so much window dressing, and not necessary for homes where at least one computer-oriented person lived. It took a home demo for me to understand how wrong I was. And oh yeah, there was the surprising improvement in sound quality over the RME 9632's S/PDIF ouput...
Can your dealer make an NDX available for home demo? TBH, I doubt you will be able to satisfy your curiosity in any other way.
Hook
Hook - good stuff. With your new 400s it would be interesting to see whether you prefer FLAC or WAV - or have no preference. Asset of course can help by transcoding if you prefer WAV.
Simon
Hi Simon-
On the off-chance that the NDX would not give its best showing, I turned on Asset's transcoding to WAV as soon as I installed it, and have left it there.
Given your experience, I see no reason to ever go back to streaming native FLAC, other than perhaps as an experiment. At some point, I would like to compare:
1) stream FLAC
2) stream FLAC transcoded to WAV
3) convet FLAC to WAV, save file and stream native WAV
All my FLAC files are compressed at level 0, so unpacking them to dbpoweramp's "uncompressed" FLAC would be the other thing I could try.
But all of this will have to wait until I get past the NDX and 400 decisions. And unless I am missing something, option 2 should be sufficient for that purpose. Hope so anyway...
Hook
Hook
I have auditioned UnityServe at home and against my Logitech setup it was on par in terms of bitstream quality and fall short in convenience. Logitech interface on iPad (called iPeng) is simply fantastic and provides everything you've listed above: search, playlist support, FF/RW, all kind of time information on tracks, most of parameters can be customized. The player response to commands is instantaneous -- just like you are using remote on CDP.
But I have a feeling that NDX can bring a tangible sonic benefit to my nDAC which may outweigh the drop in convenience. And I agree - there is only one way to check it
Or.. having such a nice setup as TP/nDAC/XPS I can just wait for NDS to get a more convincing argument for upgrade. Besides, sw may imporve by that time ....
BTW your argument on Denon AV was very convincing. It didn't come to my mind before.
What model do you use?
Have made a decision to re-convert my DSD files to 24/88.1 and be done with it for the foreseeable. If things change, I still have my original DSD copies, and can convert to something different later if ever the need ever arises.
Have decided there is too just much to like about the NDX to get hung up on this -- the sound quality is so impressive! Two factors helped me reach this conclusion. First, there were some very thoughtful posts by Aleg, Simon and Patrick in the other thread (thanks again guys). And second, and more importantly, there was the look of delight on Mrs. Hook's face when I gave her the newly purchased iPad 2 running N-Stream last night. Yes, we all know that N-Stream needs smarter searching and playlists and so on. But when the Mrs. smiled and said "This is the first time I have ever felt like I could run the stereo system all by myself", the game was over for me.
Both GREAT points. The n-stream app makes it so easy for "normal" folk to operate a hifi and get engaged quickly allowing anyone easy access to music and really, that's what it's all about isn't it?
Switching those files to 24/88 is also a smart and decisive move on your part. There is more to the hires game than simply higher and hgiher bit rates.
Lastly, I see in another post you are also using a Denon receiver that does UPnP and didn't know if you knew of an app that allows you to very simply operate that also. It has made using their A/V products (along with Marantz, same parent company) amazingly easier than the dense and almost unuseable remotes that have forever been included with their products. If you haven't already done so, go and download the free app for Denon. Simple.
AMA -
I have a 4-year old Denon 3808CI. I think this was the first generation that included Audyssey MultEQ XT set-up and Dynamic Volume control. It was pretty big deal around here being able to stop those freaking commercials from shouting! Also, had very good results from the set-up logic. Can sit pretty much anywhere in our room and hear dialogue clearly, as well as enjoy movie sound effects.
RealHiFi -
I had tried the Denon free app with zero luck. Could not get it to connect at all. On your reminder, I just went to the app store and downloaded DeRemote 3.0.6 and it works a treat! Totally worth the $8. Thanks man!
And I hear you on the Denon remotes - they suck. Have used a Harmony One for a few years now, and it works pretty well. Which reminds me, I saw that Logitech had an app as well...
Geez, could the iPad be any more addictive!?
Hook