NDX support for 24/192 via UPnP?

Maybe there are other things in play that you don't know about.

Keep an open mind.

Naim magic beans inside the box?

I just meant to say that you don't know everything there is to know even you might think you do

I am the Renaissance man!  :-)

OK - try this.  Can you define a point on a graph with just two values - the X and Y co-ordinates?

Digital audio is the same - the X co-ordinate is the time and the Y co-ordinate is the data.  You are saying that maybe you need another (mystery) value to define that point on the graph.

there are so many other factors than mystery, which influence the playback chain, and which have been elaborately discussed in this forum.

As I said, I'm all ears to hear how the NDX front end has better SQ than commodity streamers.

OK, I take what you say - but none of the theories you put forward sound at all plausible (e.g. there's no more work in de-jittering jittery Toslink signals to non-jittery ones).  I still remember a TV programme where they compared the effectiveness of two identical boxes of painkillers, one of which was branded Anadin.  Needless to say, the branded painkillers worked twice as well as the non-branded.

If digital data transmission was as fragile as you imply, very few computers or digital devices would work.

I'm sure Naim have done a great job in keeping digital noise away from the DAC in the NDX - I was talking about the front end digital streamer.

@DavidDever - OK - we'll have to agree to disagree here.  I don't believe ground-plane noise causes data corruption in audio equipment.

Going further off topic... regardless of SQ deltas, streamers/renderers and servers wildly differ based on function:

What control points are available? 

Does it play hires? 

If so, to 24/96 or 24/192 etc??

Which codecs?

Internet Radio?

Does it have BNC, Coax or Toslink out? 

I2S out???

Does it have more than one output? 

Does it have analog out?

Digital Input????????

What kind of dispay?

What OS will it get along most with?

Does it support track seek?

Volume?

Headphones?

What protocol does it use?  UPNP, Airplay, proprietary?

and on and on.

Seeing that I will NOT use Squeeze Server or whatever, their iOS App sucks, and it is not a UPNP renderer, the Squeezebox has no place in my world even if it blew the NDX away.

Since I do like to play some hires files, Sonos or AppleTV are not options for me.

I have a nice nDAC so not wanting to drop extra cash on a Linn DS.

The NDX is too much for my budget. 

The Qute is sitting there just asking me to buy it.  But.... if there were an ampless Qute without DAC?????  Come on!!! 

Lastly, yes such a product would be worth 5 times a Logitech Touch even before we talk about sound quality.

-Patrick

That´s because you do not know and you are not an audio electronics design engineer. I used to be many years ago and I can tell you that you are so wrong and you should listen to what Dave is saying and then go and listen to  the difference, You will be very surprised if not enlightened.

Try listening to different digital interconnects. They say it´s only 1´s and 0´s and they should all sound the same. They don´t because because it´s an analogue RF signal that is so prone to interference and a good cable with good shielding will always improve the audio quality.

Gordon

@Gordon - how about Toslink optical i/cs?

If there's enough ground-plane noise on the motherboard of a piece of audio equipment to flip bits in the digital section, all sorts of things would start going wrong.  For example, the microcontroller could start receiving invalid opcodes and crash.  It would be such a gross piece of poor design it would't leave the development lab.

Noogle,

Will you please let your ears do the walking?  Then come in and let us know your findings.  Many have gone from thinking the source doesn't matter to thinking it does.  Not many (none), have gone the other way.  That might say something.

Dont rely SOLELY on the theory.  Physics says that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly from a aerodynamics and power-to-weight ratio perspective.......  But real life says otherwise.

My humble comment would be: it is probably not about the ground noise flipping the bits, but more about its being transferred throughout the chain.

Hi Noogle -

The topic of whether sources for the DAC could sound different has been discussed at great length, starting back with this infamous thread:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...6878605881522/page/1

If you do read these through, you'll see I was one of the bigger skeptics!   At the end of this, as well as the several other threads this one spawned, the consensus was:

1) there is no denying the fact that many (apparently sane) people do claim to hear these differences, and

2) nobody understands everything about how electrical noise, RF and vibration effects sound quality

We're not talking about flipping bits.  As Aysil suggests, it is more about how the presence of the connection (or even just the physical proximity of the source) effects the DAC and, possibly, other downstream components.  There is also evidence that simply making the DAC work harder (FLAC versus WAV) can have an audible impact.   Strange, but true (to the ears of those who are hearing it)!

Last night, just for grins, I hooked my PC server (RME 9632 sound card) back up to the DAC.  I played music using its DB9-to-BNC S/PDIF connection, while the NDX played the same music (almost in sync) via UPnP.   I used the remote to switch back and forth between the DAC inputs.  I used my Radio Shack SPL meter to make sure there was not any difference in volume.

In a single blind test (a large, folded cardboard box was placed in front of the rack), and using 30 second samples, Mrs. Hook picked the NDX over the PC...10 out of 10 times.   I asked her to go a second round, but she said no thanks, and that the difference was too obvious to her as to require any further testing.

A few days back, I asked her to listen these two, and the tests were not blind -- she could see which input was playing.   I guess it is possible that she learned to recognize some of the sonic cues during that first session, but I kind of doubt it.

Following that blind test, I listened to the PC for about 45 minutes, then did the same with the NDX.   I deliberately tried not to listen for sonic differences. Instead, I just tried to relax and listen to music.  As before, in the end, I felt that the NDX was more...engaging. 

To be honest, I do not care if this is all in my head.  I do not care if it is merely expectation bias, or some form of post-purchase rationalization (actually, I haven't purchased the NDX yet...technically it is still just a loaner...but I am going to buy it  ).   And I am not going to try and elaborate here on the emotional impact of music -- none of us would be on this forum if we had not at some point felt it.   I am certain that we all know what it feels like to have beautiful music bypass our brains, and go right to our hearts.  Bottom line for me was that I felt this emotion a lot more strongly listening to the NDX.

Anyway Noogle, I hope you do get a chance to hear this comparison at some point.   Perhaps your friendly, local Naim dealer could set up a NDX->DAC/555PS, and let you also hook up your HTPC.   Would love to hear the results of your demo!

Best of luck.

Hook

Nice post Hook.

Noogle, I used to be a skeptic too, but was also able to test in my setup some time ago and can hear a clear enough difference to know there is somethign going on.

I tested using an Apple TV into Qute DAC vs Qute UPNP streaming.  I can only A/B once at a time, but do this by starting the track on the Apple TV (in the background) and on the Qute at the same time.  At a suitable point in a track, I switch input from UPNP to Apple TV and listen for the difference.  The Qute's streaming is audibly better SQ than the Apple TV.

This could be for all sorts of reasons, eg.:

• Toslink connection from the ATV, whereby the original electrical signal is converted to optical and then back to electrical before being played.
• Lower total bandwidth of toslink vs. electrical.
• Shorter signal path within the Qute itself.
• Higher quality power supply and shielding in the Qute vs. tiny ATV with poor quality PSU introducing enough electrical noise to cause additional jitter.
• Qute's chip and optimised streaming code being able to focus nearer to 100% on SQ, vs. ATV which is running iOS and also outputting images to a TV screen at the same time.

I am however 100% with you on the theory side (they should all sound the same), but the real world has rather more variables that get involved.

John

> The Qute's streaming is audibly better SQ than the Apple TV.

I think the two would sound different as the ATV up-samples and uses a mediocre chip for its jitter generator digital output. Nonetheless it achieves surprisingly good results. However, the UQ seems to do very little in terms of clever processing - it just delivers the goods. The UQ is rather more expensive than the ATV - both do what they set out to do and both offer excellent value. 

Given the differences in components and the ATV's up-sampling, cheap chips and power supply, I'm not one who thinks they would sound the same. Unlike the my magic ripper rips better than iTunes even though the files are identical debate, this difference does seem to have some grounding in logic. 

But then again, I'm crazy enough to think my Sonus W4S streamer into Naim DAC/555PS could sound better than a UnitiServe into a cheap DAC so I'm probably quite mad 

All the best, Guy

OK, will set up an NDX/555PS/NDAC dem.  Would still like to understand why it's better though.

• If the Toslink connection is dropping or flipping bits, something is seriously wrong.
• Toslink has plenty of bandwidth for audio.
• Different signal paths in Qute?  If you're in the digital domain, this shouldn't make any odds.
• Jitter from ATV - quite likely to affect SQ.  My discussion above was about NDX and NDAC, which are both asynchronous, making jitter irrelevant.
• I doubt ATV's processor is getting saturated - very poor design if it is.

Why????  If it sounds better, it is.  You must remember there is no objective method for comparing.

Hook, sorry for the late reply....and thank you for your great write-up of your first impressions of the S400s.  Yes, please do blame me for making you write up such a long post!  But I'm very glad you did.  I respect your style of evaluating audio equipment, therefore I was curious as to how you perceived the S400s vs the C7s.  The operative word is certainly 'perceived', as listening to music is very much subjective, as is tasting food, or appreciating art...

Sometimes I wish I lived in another country, if the only advantage would be to be able to do more home demos.  I listened to the S400s, C7s, and several other speakers over the period of a few weeks just recently, but all at different dealers and with different equipment.  I did not end up with the S400s, but because of the evaluation process I was forced to use, sometimes I still can't help to think "what if?" about the S400s, or the C7s, or 804Ds...etc etc.  Anyway, I digress.    Good luck with the rest of your home demo and be sure to report in on your final decision (and any changes in your impressions should you find any).

On another note, just when I thought I had finished with all this hi-fi upgrading business, and was even going to embark on a DIY PC building project as you suggested to me before, you made me curious about the NDX!  I think I will wait though...until at least my CD5XS decides to give in.  Or the itch becomes too great to scratch.  Gee, wonder which of those two will come first...

Nice white paper about optimising software playback of audio by the developer of audirvana.

Highlights also some other issues than just bit-perfectness and jitter.

Beyond Bit-perfect