Naim Dac

Definitely NDS. At least for my ears. Each to their own.

Patu posted:

So what DAC are you using now? 

I doubt there's better alternative out there in the DAC market if Naim sound signature is what you're after. Maybe NDS? Also, the firmware update really brought Naim DAC to another level. 

EDIT:

Nevermind, the information was in your profile. 

A comparison of the Ndac and the NDS's dac section by Richard Dane!

Posted By Richard Dane:
"MDFdude posted:
 
so nDAC = NDS DAC section ?

“”Yes, and no...  
much is shared, such as the selected Burr Brown PCM1704K DAC chips, 40bit Sharc processor etc.. and both have a fully discrete analogue output stage.  The NDS goes further with no internal PSU and the mass loaded suspended boards.”"

Harry,

Did you compare the DAC sections only or just NDS vs Naim DAC? Naim DAC sound quality is greatly affected by the transport used when NDS kind of has transport (streamer section) built in. But you can compare the DAC sections using NDS's digital input. 

I did

NDS does sound more organic to my ears, it seems to extract more details from each recording. And it sounds almost analogue in the way it presents music.

However.... When a 555PSDR is added to an nDAC, fed from say NDX or CDX2.2 - things start to get very close, very close....

Adam

Sloop John B posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

I think this a trap.Do you expect the sound of your nDAC to degrde over time? And your amps to be constant?

Of course there will always be somthing new and fancy. That is the nature of progres.

if you are unhappy with your nDAC just sell it and stop seeking justification to your statement that it represents a poor value.

Dear Adam,

DACs are evolving technology, amplifiers are more mature and by and large evolve more slowly and by smaller increments. I have sold my nDAC and got back what I paid for it because I bought it on the second hand market - this is the advice I'm trying to pass on to the OP. 

My new DAC sounds better (subjectively obviously) ,  has more inputs and doubles as a headphone amp. 

Im sorry if this somehow upsets you.

 

SJB

 

I am not upset

I've seen too many posts here where posters want to have their actions justified and impose their purchases and solutions on people, untill someone 'approves'. 

Having said that - the advice to buy second-hand, in good condition is a very sound one. That is how I bought my nDAC, happy in the knowledge that if I wanted to resell it, it woudl most likely fetch what I paid for it.

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted 

 

I've seen too many posts here where posters want to have their actions justified and impose their purchases and solutions on people, untill someone 'approves'. 

 

Desperately Seeking Approval, you've nailed me, it must be time for me to hang up my Snaic for some brave new world. 

SJB

I don’t think you can lose either way. It just comes down to what you prefer. Our NDS/555PS (fed from our HDX) came in to challenge HDX/DAC/555PS, and walked it. It was so much more realistic, believable, less “digital” if you will. A kind of spiritual successor to the CDS3/XPS2 but way ahead on detail retrieval, and musical realism. It just sounded “right”.

Helen and I did not take any convincing. But all ears, rooms, systems, are different. What works for me (and for many happy NDS owners) won’t necessarily work for everybody. Proceed with caution and trust your ears, not mine.

Adam Zielinski posted:

I did

NDS does sound more organic to my ears, it seems to extract more details from each recording. And it sounds almost analogue in the way it presents music.

However.... When a 555PSDR is added to an nDAC, fed from say NDX or CDX2.2 - things start to get very close, very close....

Adam

That's my unspoken point!  $$$$$$ 2nd Ndac/Ndx/555PS

Thanks Adam.

Allante93!

Once 555PS arrives (waiting for a delivery) I have this cunning plan of borrowing my dealer's 555PS again (well... actually not giving it back straight away) and powering my nDAC with it for an extended listen over several weeks. Should be interesting....

Ahhh... the  joys of endless testing 

Allante93 posted:

James L posted:

The CDX2 feeds a digital signal to the DAC.

The XPS2 acts as power supply to the DAC.

This confuses me, I thought the purpose of the PS was to power the intended device.

Hence, no PL or power cord needed, which improves the performance of the intended device.

Plausible Upgrade sequence:

Cdx2.2 = 1 box = 1 power cord (PC)

Cdx2.2/XPS2 DR or 555 PS = 2 box = 1 PC

Cdx2.2/Ndac/555 PS = 3 box = 2 PC's 

Cdx2.2/FC/Ndac/555PS = 4 box = 2 PC's

Always wondered about this, right now I have the older version, Cdx2, 2008 model.

Researched the Forum, and the feedback suggested the SQ was similar between an 2008 Cdx2/mk1 version, and a 2009 Cdx2.2/mk2 version.

Trying to decide between Xps2 DR & 555PS .

Thanks in Advance!

Allante93!

Not so, Allante.  When adding an external PSU like an XPS2 to the nDAC the nDAC still needs its own power cable. And I have found that even in that configuration there is still benefit in putting a Powerline on the nDAC.

So in my CD set-up my CDX2.2 is wholly powered externally by an XP5XS (which has a Powerline on it), that feeds an nDAC, which has a Powerline on its internal supply, and a 555PSDR with a Powerline feeding its signal circuits.  In other words, a four-box CD configuration with three PowerLines.  

Oh, and the 555PS is miles, miles better than the XPS2 on the nDAC. When I tried an XPS2DR I felt it only marginally better than the XP5XS I was using at the time. The 555PS was in a completely different league.

Mike

Adam Zielinski posted:

Once 555PS arrives (waiting for a delivery) I have this cunning plan of borrowing my dealer's 555PS again (well... actually not giving it back straight away) and powering my nDAC with it for an extended listen over several weeks. Should be interesting....

Ahhh... the  joys of endless testing 

I'll be interested to know what you make of the comparison, Adam.  Late last year I had an opportunity to compare the NDS against an nDAC, both powered by a 555PSDR, and I preferred the nDAC. I tried the NDS as a straight replacement for the nDAC i.e. being fed with the digital output of a CDX2.2 powered externally by an XP5XS. I then tried the NDS in streaming mode (from a Unitiserve, I think). The latter was better than the former but in my view still not as enjoyable as the nDAC. I was fully expecting to prefer the NDS so was surprised at the result.  

Mike

MDS posted:

Not so, Allante.  When adding an external PSU like an XPS2 to the nDAC the nDAC still needs its own power cable. And I have found that even in that configuration there is still benefit in putting a Powerline on the nDAC.

So in my CD set-up my CDX2.2 is wholly powered externally by an XP5XS (which has a Powerline on it), that feeds an nDAC, which has a Powerline on its internal supply, and a 555PSDR with a Powerline feeding its signal circuits.  In other words, a four-box CD configuration with three PowerLines.  

Oh, and the 555PS is miles, miles better than the XPS2 on the nDAC. When I tried an XPS2DR I felt it only marginally better than the XP5XS I was using at the time. The 555PS was in a completely different league.

Mike

Mike - an interesting set-up with your CDX2.2.
What benefit do you see/hear from adding a XP5XS to your CDX2.2 when it's running in a digital out mode?
I also run my CDX2.2 into an nDAC + XPS (all with PowerLines), so curious to hear your opinion...

Adam

MDS posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Once 555PS arrives (waiting for a delivery) I have this cunning plan of borrowing my dealer's 555PS again (well... actually not giving it back straight away) and powering my nDAC with it for an extended listen over several weeks. Should be interesting....

Ahhh... the  joys of endless testing 

I'll be interested to know what you make of the comparison, Adam.  Late last year I had an opportunity to compare the NDS against an nDAC, both powered by a 555PSDR, and I preferred the nDAC. I tried the NDS as a straight replacement for the nDAC i.e. being fed with the digital output of a CDX2.2 powered externally by an XP5XS. I then tried the NDS in streaming mode (from a Unitiserve, I think). The latter was better than the former but in my view still not as enjoyable as the nDAC. I was fully expecting to prefer the NDS so was surprised at the result.  

Mike

I will report my findings.

It's going to be a bit of a skewed test as my NDS feeds into 282 and NDX/nDAC into a SN2. But still...

Adam Zielinski posted:

MDS posted:

Not so, Allante.  When adding an external PSU like an XPS2 to the nDAC the nDAC still needs its own power cable. And I have found that even in that configuration there is still benefit in putting a Powerline on the nDAC.

So in my CD set-up my CDX2.2 is wholly powered externally by an XP5XS (which has a Powerline on it), that feeds an nDAC, which has a Powerline on its internal supply, and a 555PSDR with a Powerline feeding its signal circuits.  In other words, a four-box CD configuration with three PowerLines.  

Oh, and the 555PS is miles, miles better than the XPS2 on the nDAC. When I tried an XPS2DR I felt it only marginally better than the XP5XS I was using at the time. The 555PS was in a completely different league.

Mike

Mike - an interesting set-up with your CDX2.2.
What benefit do you see/hear from adding a XP5XS to your CDX2.2 when it's running in a digital out mode?
I also run my CDX2.2 into an nDAC + XPS (all with PowerLines), so curious to hear your opinion...

Adam

Adam - this began a few years back when the only piece of Naim kit I had was the nDAC.  I was feeding it from an Accuphase DP-80L: a battleship-built CD transport on which I had upgraded the internal clock by Trichcord. I thought it couldn't be bettered as a transport.  I was keen to try an external PSU on my nDAC and asked my dealer to bring round an XPS2 (this was before DR).  He did so and it sounded good. However, he also brought with him a CDX2.2 and suggested it might be interesting to try it in place of my Accuphase transport.  I was highly sceptical but happy to give it it try.  The surprise was that the performance improvement of the CDX2.2 into (bare) nDAC was bigger than that of Accuphase into nDAC/XPS2!

Of course I then wanted both CDX2.2 and XPS2 even though that was double what I had planned to spend. But my dealer suggested I wait.  A little while later the XP5XS was announced and having chatted to his contacts at Salisbury he suggested I try a CDX2.2 and two XP5XSs, one on the CDX2.2 and one on the nDAC.  After demos it was clear that the four box solution, with two XP5s, outperformed the traditional three-box set-up of CDX2.2/nDAC/XPS2, and the cost was about the same.  So I went for the four-box set-up.  I know it's unusual but getting the PSU away from the CX2.2 really seems to benefit the digital output.  

Mike 

Most interesting Mike. Will test my nDAC with 555PS and leave my XPS on one of the digital sources - probably NDX to start with.

Should be an intersting test... 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Most interesting Mike. Will test my nDAC with 555PS and leave my XPS on one of the digital sources - probably NDX to start with.

Should be an intersting test... 

Now this is good stuff, Mike has straighten me out, with the Ndac!

Thanks Mike!

So let's try it again!

Plausible Upgrade sequence:

Cdx2.2 = 1 box = 1 power cord (PC)

Cdx2.2/555PS = 2 box = 1 PC

Cdx2.2/Ndac/555 PS = 3 box = 3 PC's1 on Cdx2.2/1 on Ndac/1 on 555PS

Cdx2.2/XP5XS/Ndac/555PS = 4 box = 3 PC's

So on the plus side the Cdx2.2 is powered by the XP5XS.

But the Ndac still needs a PC, and of course the 555PS needs a PC!

Is that correct Mike & Adam!

Allante93!

Allante93 - yes, correct.

Mike, I enjoyed my NDAC/555PS for the years I owned it, but I did notice it was very sensitive to digital transport quality and type... seemingly more so than some other DACs.

I remember listening to a NDX/555PS into NDAC/555PS into a 500/552 and Kudos Titan system and being very impressed with a silly grin on my face..  to me that was 100% Naim sound concentrate....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike, I enjoyed my NDAC/555PS for the years I owned it, but I did notice it was very sensitive to digital transport quality and type... seemingly more so than some other DACs.

I remember listening to a NDX/555PS into NDAC/555PS into a 500/552 and Kudos Titan system and being very impressed with a silly grin on my face..  to me that was 100% Naim sound concentrate....

Posted By Richard Dane:

"MDFdude posted: 

so nDAC = NDS DAC section ?

“”Yes, and no...  

much is shared, such as the selected Burr Brown PCM1704K DAC chips, 40bit Sharc processor etc.. and both have a fully discrete analogue output stage.  The NDS goes further with no internal PSU and the mass loaded suspended boards.”"

So if one is not born with a silver spoon, they can disengage the internal PS,  within the Ndac, and power the Ndac with the same PS used with the NDS.

Now, to deal with the MLSB, which surely if plus for an 14K NDS, we feed the the Ndac the digital signal from the NDS's little brother, the NDX.

Now all that's left is to disengage the NDX's PSU, and power it with Naim's best PS!

Simon, do you think this explains the silly grin you had on your face?

NDX/555PS---Ndac/555PS

Of course, myself not born with a silver spoon, was thinking more along the lines of 2nd hand:

NDX/XP5XS---Ndac/555PS = 4 box/3 PC

VS

NDS/555PS = 2 box/1 PC

Oh well, 6 or half a dozen! Of expensive eggs!

Allante93!

Allante - the silly grin was because it sounded really involving and  vibrant with the music I was listening to; Gil Scott-Heron's - I'm New Here.... i am not sure it was a very practical system however - it was a lot of boxes and cost - but it sounded good with that music.

BTW The NDS and NDAC sound very different - I have lived with both for a short and long time respectfully. Yes they both share the same multi-bit Texas Instruments  PCM1704K DAC chip (Burr Brown bit the the dust some time ago) - but there is more to the sound of a DAC than from the converter chip alone.

I think an NDX into NDAC/55PS (nonDR) will be a very respectable performer for you - giving a great a Naim sound. I ran this for a few years.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I think an NDX into NDAC/55PS (nonDR) will be a very respectable performer for you - giving a great a Naim sound. I ran this for a few years.

Simon

 

Thanks for the information Simon, just making sure I'm on the correct upgrade path.

The Ndx is down the road! But thanks to you and others, the 555 PS non DR has entered the equation.

 Cdx2/282/HCDR/3 x 250.2/Passive Tri Amped Briks!

End game Active Briks 

Upgrade list in order of importance!

SCDR - allows A-B with HCDR

555PS - beefs up the 2008 mk1 

Snaxo 362 - Active Briks

Ndac - enter the world of streaming!

I don't really know if I'm streaming now, but I rip CDs with my MM, purchase songs from iTunes, Create personal playlist, and Library consist of 1500 songs with iTunes maximum kilobytes.

 All of this streamed from Airport Extreme to three airport expresses.

1. Naim System Flat earth Living room

2. Primare Pre 30/Arcam P1 mono blocks

2. Veiana Acoustic Baby Grands Family Room

3. Emotiva processor - Rec Room

Allante93!