Leak in Mains Water Supply.

About 12 years ago I had a similar problem where I was 'You' and my water main sprung a leak under 'Neighbour A's house. As far as I was concerned, the leak was my responsibility, and it was fixed at my expense, as per Example 1. This was dealt with by Welsh Water, who seem to use the same principles as your supplier. So as far as I can see, this is a matter between your neighbour and the supplier, and you are just a third party who may have to suffer the inconvenience of having disruptive repair work done within your boundary.

It does seem  bit suspicious that the leak is in the same place as before. Maybe the repair was botched and the cost should be borne by the supplier? Then again, if it's an old steel pipe, it could be on the way out.

Good luck!

Many moons ago I laid claim to being, to the best of my belief, the only terraced house with a moat: perhaps My claim may now have been met by another, though perhaps the OP's house is detached, just with shared supply?

Anyway, I suspect that local water bye-laws don't cover this, and responsibility may be a matter of property law, though it is possible that it could be covered in the house deeds, so if you haven't done so it could be worth checking there. Same is likely to apply to any other shared supplies like sewers, electricity and gas.

My case wasn't a matter of responsibility, but a lack of original plans compounded by an unusual approach originally taken:- Upon first moving into the house there was audible water flow transmitted through pipes. Single water authority stopcock to the terrace of 5 houses was found located at one end of the terrace approx in line with the front boundary  of the front gardens the houses. Assumption was the pipe ran along front with branches into each property through foundations of front wall, as per normal but skimping on stopcocks (at least water supply couldn't easily be cut off if we didn't pay our bills!) Plumber dug up along house one side of concrete path: pit filled with water, but no pipe. Did same other side of path: same result. Dug under path making it into a bridge over the extended pit: same again.  Went to back of house and dug pit (again soon into water), gradually extending along wall until: the pipe was found! Leak was where it passed through the foundations. So against all commonsense and expectation, the pipe from the single stopcock went round to the back before the first house and ran along behind the houses, branching into each. Not ancient properties:  built 1970s, event was 1981. THames Water again IIRC.

The things you learn.  Enjoy reading about these differences. In my part, and I suspect most if not all, of the US all water is plumbed to individual houses or units even on small cul de sac type streets. Homeowner pays for repairs on their side of the sidewalk or street, water purveyor on the street side. The individual billing meter is located on the property just inside the sidewalk line. Exceptions to this rule would be buildings with multiple units/single meter in a single building in which case the fees are covered by a common assessment or rental fees with the dividing line with the water purveyor for repair responsibility again being the sidewalk. 

Clay Bingham posted:

The things you learn.  Enjoy reading about these differences. In my part, and I suspect most if not all, of the US all water is plumbed to individual houses or units even on small cul de sac type streets. Homeowner pays for repairs on their side of the sidewalk or street, water purveyor on the street side. The individual billing meter is located on the property just inside the sidewalk line. Exceptions to this rule would be buildings with multiple units/single meter in a single building in which case the fees are covered by a common assessment or rental fees with the dividing line with the water purveyor for repair responsibility again being the sidewalk. 

That actually is the norm n Britain, other than that the for the majority of consumers it is not metered (gradually changing), instead ther's a stopcock sits in the equivalent place - however there clearly have been exceptions?

Yes, the "norm" here in the UK is illustrated in the first picture, ie the individual property with its own supply. The stopcock, which is the responsibility of the Water Company, is usually in the footpath of the street and the dividing line is the property boundary.

We are in a slightly unusual situation in that we live in a private cul-de-sac. The three properties on our side of the road are fed from a single stop cock which is located in a public footpath, then via a single supply pipe that runs along our front gardens with three individual branches, each with its own stop cock, one to each house.

This is very much like the Examples 1 to 3 above except that each house has its own stop cock in its branch, within its own property boundary.

The supply pipe used to continue and feed a couple more houses. But donkeys years ago they organised a separate supply and the common supply to our three properties was blanked off and terminated somewhere in my neighbour's garden.

Diagram updated to confirm that each property has its own EXTERNAL stop tap. Each external stop tap is just inside the property boundary and the shared supply pipe runs just inside each of our property boundaries. All very much as per the diagram.

Remember, "we" occupy the middle property, ie the one labelled "Neighbour A"

Until a couple of years ago, we each thought we had separate, individual supplies, directly off the water company main.

I presume Thames Water still regard the communal stopcock as the limit of their responsibility, in which case the individual ones don't change the situation, but either way, it seems that your neighbour is still responsible. TW may be less willing to do a second repair for free. Welsh Water have an arbitrary limit of one free repair every 3 years, but I'm not sure how strictly they enforce this.

Do you know how old the pipes (or your houses) are? When they reach a certain age, the usual recommendation is to start again with a new pipe run, especially if the faulty pipes are old steel ones. Obviously more expensive in the short term, but maybe a case of 'a stitch in time?' This would also give you independent supplies, eliminating the chance of further disputes.

Hi Chris,

Yes, TW are responsible only up to a stop cock about 50m away in a public road.

The supply pipe then immediately enters the garden of the first of three houses, all of which are situated on a private road.

My understanding is that all three houses are responsible for the first run of pipe up to the branch for the first house. Then only the second (that's us) and third houses are responsible for the pipe, (even though it is still running beneath the garden of the first house) until it has crossed most of my garden and reached the branch to my house. Finally, only the third house is responsible for the pipe, even though it has a further two meters to run before it crosses into their property.

I presume the "beneficial" user of the pipe is responsible for its installation, maintenance, repair and replacement. I also presume that each beneficial user has some sort of "wayleave" that entitles them to maintain, repair and replace the pipe, even though it is situated on land other than their own (but I haven't checked my deeds)

If we were to opt for individual supplies, we would need 50 meters of new pipe laid in the road with new communication pipes into each property. I'm not certain that TW would be any more happy to take responsibility for a pipe along a private road, as opposed to a pipe across private gardens ?

TW will only do one free repair per freeholder.

The pipe is metal, but i'm not sure what metal. Our house is 60 years old but the ones either side are over a hundred years old. Ours is situated in what used to be the orchard of the first house. We relaid the branch into our house about 25 years ago using blue "plastic"

We haven't fallen out with our neighbour (yet). He's quite reasonable and easy to talk to. TW are coming on Friday to investigate the leak. The girl on the phone knew less about repair guarantees, ownership, responsibility etc than any of us ! I have already told him next door that even if its legally his responsibility I will cover half the cost.

All my understanding is based on the diagrams I posted above (from the Affinity Water website) and similar drawings on the OFWAT website. Plus of course, your initial post above

Cgeers

Don

Don, if your pipes are metal, that probably means steel, and they will inevitably deteriorate further. I would be tempted to discuss the possibility with TW of having a new supply installed, although you may end up using a private contractor to do it. The problem might be persuading other residents that this is worthwhile, as it more than likely makes no sense to do this individually. If you live in a soft rock area like the Thames Valley, you can probably have it done with a 'Mole' type boring machine, which means no trenches are required, and makes it much quicker and easier than digging. You'd probably improve your water pressure/flow rate too, as steel pipes can corrode or fur up on the inside, reducing their internal diameter to virtually nothing in time. Once you have an MDPE (blue plastic) pipe installed, these issues should become a thing of the past.  

Chris

It could be copper at that age. It would be a heavy gauge copper. 

Its not really uncommon for rows of houses to share one main, it's obviousy to do with the builders and saving costs??

just dig down, find the leak, cap off the pipe and if your neighbour is the only one with no water then he pays to have the repair done. Bet it's not far down and is cheap enough to repair anyway, maybe the water company's repair is sub standard and if you expose it and find that's the case get them to sort it properly.

i am a heating & plumbing engineer but I'm in South West Water's area.

ChrisSU posted:

Don, if your pipes are metal, that probably means steel, and they will inevitably deteriorate further. I would be tempted to discuss the possibility with TW of having a new supply installed, although you may end up using a private contractor to do it. The problem might be persuading other residents that this is worthwhile, as it more than likely makes no sense to do this individually. If you live in a soft rock area like the Thames Valley, you can probably have it done with a 'Mole' type boring machine, which means no trenches are required, and makes it much quicker and easier than digging. You'd probably improve your water pressure/flow rate too, as steel pipes can corrode or fur up on the inside, reducing their internal diameter to virtually nothing in time. Once you have an MDPE (blue plastic) pipe installed, these issues should become a thing of the past.  

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I spoke to our neighbours this afternoon. They appear to have accepted that the leak is probably their responsibility and that rather than repair the pipe, they might be better off replacing it with the blue plastic MDPE. We will discuss this with TW on Friday and re-assess the situation. "their" length of pipe is only about 3m so a short trench and a couple of fittings should do the trick.

let's hope !

Drewy posted:

It could be copper at that age. It would be a heavy gauge copper. 

Its not really uncommon for rows of houses to share one main, it's obviousy to do with the builders and saving costs??

just dig down, find the leak, cap off the pipe and if your neighbour is the only one with no water then he pays to have the repair done. Bet it's not far down and is cheap enough to repair anyway, maybe the water company's repair is sub standard and if you expose it and find that's the case get them to sort it properly.

i am a heating & plumbing engineer but I'm in South West Water's area.

Hi Drewy,

Last time, it was I who dug along the pipe to find the leak. The pipe is about 2' 6" deep. I wasn't there when TW repaired it and re-filled the trench. Mrs D isn't technically minded so has no idea at all what they did as a repair.

It could be that the repair has failed, but it could equally be a new leak, despite the short length of pipe (about 3m).

I'm reluctant to expose the pipe again. Firstly I hurt my back last year and i'm a bit warey of bending and twisting too much. Secondly I don't want to "confuse" matters by accidentally disturbing what might be a failed joint. And thirdly, if I start, everybody else will assume that I am taking full responsibility for getting the job finished - including paying for any contractor involvement ! (at least, that's what happened last time round !

Many thanks for your input.

Cheers, Don

Great. The funny thing is the materials are so cheap. It's just one of those horrible jobs. To be honest when mine eventually goes I'll be paying the local specialists with the mole equipment to put me a new one in while I'm out servicing boilers. Digging is a right pain in the back.

Well, a very pleasant man from TW came along on Wednesday morning.

He used various devices to trace the supply pipe layout to the various houses in our avenue. It matched the layout we had traced a couple of years ago with a wire coat hanger that we had used as a dowsing rod.

He confirmed that the leak was in our neighbour's supply pipe, in that section which lies beneath out drive. He confirmed the repair will be carried out and will be done free of charge. That should please our neighbour. We agreed to their contractor digging up part of our drive and re-instating it properly.

The job was marked as "urgent !" and he said we should expect to hear from his contractor Wednesday afternoon and for the job to be complete by the end of the week !

We are still waiting for the contractor to phone !

But we did have a call on Wednesday afternoon from the Thames Water Customer Satisfaction Survey Team asking how we thought their surveyor and contractor had performed

Good luck Don, hopefully they'll replace the whole pipe run this time instead of just fixing one leak and leaving you to wait for the next one!

Thames Water came yesterday and fixed the leak.

The pipe is galvanised iron and the leak was about 3" away from the last repair that was done a couple of years ago. So another short length of plastic pipe was put in and joined to the previous plastic repair. Job took about two and a half hours to complete.

The guys were pleasant and chearful and left everything clean and tidy.

They reckon they'll be back in a couple of years to fix the next leak a few more inches away.