Small integrated amps compared. Naim vs McIntosh

analogmusic posted:

Knipester posted:

Don't buy until you Try a Vitus integrated they are breathtaking 

I completely disagree. Some comments on this forum made me waste my time listening to what you suggested, and I came away even more happy with my 282/250DR. I won't say more out of courtesy.

Nowadays one cannot go wrong buying a 272/XPSDR/250 DR. Highly recommended.

 

Each to his own analog. Tops marks to you for  listenening to the vitus again with an open mind, as I sure, many are aware you had a downer on vitus long long before you got your 282/250!

for me I was already building a 500 based system when I heard the vitus and changed tack. Nothing wrong with the naim system I just preferred the vitus. Perhaps if the statement had been around then things would have been different. 

CariocaJeff posted:

analogmusic posted:

Knipester posted:

Don't buy until you Try a Vitus integrated they are breathtaking 

I completely disagree. Some comments on this forum made me waste my time listening to what you suggested, and I came away even more happy with my 282/250DR. I won't say more out of courtesy.

Nowadays one cannot go wrong buying a 272/XPSDR/250 DR. Highly recommended.

 

Each to his own analog. Tops marks to you for  listenening to the vitus again with an open mind, as I sure, many are aware you had a downer on vitus long long before you got your 282/250!

for me I was already building a 500 based system when I heard the vitus and changed tack. Nothing wrong with the naim system I just preferred the vitus. Perhaps if the statement had been around then things would have been different. 

I never reached the 500 series with Naim (probably would have considered if the following hadn't happened) but did have a 300/252/sc dr and generally I was pleased with it performance. Unfortunately the Naim kit didn't drive my shahinian obelisk mk2 speakers as I wanted (not enough current) so I started to look around and hey presto Vitus appeared on my radar. It is a different sound to Naim and if you only spend a short amount of time with Vitus you probably won't begin to adjust to what its house sound does so well. 

Initial thoughts can include : no bass, where as actually over time you begin to realise the bass is still there but more incorporated into the sound and not as separate as other makes. 

Ive owned both a Vitus ri-100 and just recently switched to the Vitus sia-025. Both have made me smile more than the Naim kit mentioned above, they just have the ability to deliver really pure sound with fabulous emotion.

but we are all different

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereon one must remain silent "

Everyone is entitled to their choice, this is hi-fi after all, and I am not completely loyal to Naim, after all I use a Chord Hugo as my front end, and Dynaudio speakers.

But in terms of amplifiers, I never heard any that sounded better than Naim to me musically and for the musical values that are important to me, namely Pace, Rhythm and Timing, in one word "Boogie factor". I knew when I first head Naim, that this is the one I was looking for.

Sure there are plenty of brands other there, Levinson, Krell, Macintosh, etc etc etc, but for me Naim does boogie the best. 

Naim as a company understand this very well, i.e what it takes to bring music to life. If I had difficult speakers  then I would have sold the speakers (which I did) and bought ones that are more compatible with Naim (which I did - and there are plenty of those to choose from Focal, PMC, Kudos, Proac, Neat, Sonus Faber, Dynaudio, ATC, Harbeth), but to each their own.

I find the kit you mentioned way, way too expensive - and then doesn't "boogie" to my ears like Naim, when for me the Uq2 and/or DAC v1/100 with easy to drive speakers  (neat Iota) are really all the Naim kit I ever needed.

Anto68 posted:

T38.45 posted:

. The integrated amps, pre- and poweramps from McIntosh are great, the DAC is a mess (USB errors, wrong display etc.). 

Ralf

My today's experience has left me disappointed, an XS won hands down. Perhaps the best Mc integrated amps are those with output autoformers that the 5200 does not

Mc fans are probably into the facilities the gear provides. The 5200 looks like it's got everything that anyone would ever need in it. Headphones, phono stage, dac, tone control but no Tubes and as you have observed not the output transformers of their more costly power amps.  Not surprising that the Naim XS and ND5XS and power supply outclassed the Mc what with dedicated transformers, case and circuitry for a more specific job.

I had my Vivid Audio Giya G3's demoed to me on an all Mc system.  Pretty toppish set up - i think it was a MCD 1100 pre with MC275 Anniversaries in what they called bridge mode i think ie 1 amp on each speaker. Fronted by some ridiculous MC CD player - i think he said it was 17k!  Although it did demonstrate that the Vivids were sounding great i did feel - from the first track - that the imaging, detail and boogie would be bettered by my own electronics at home 252/300/SCDR HDX /DAC/555DR  and that the newly installed 552 would actually walk all over it.  I was right.  When i got them home I had a much clearer idea of how revealing and musical the Vivids were and that was before i got hold of the super lumina speaker cable.  I've loved the NAIM sounds for some years (18ish) and nothing of what was demoed would make me switch.  It does what i love oh so well. MC sounded good but didnt engage me like my own set up.

tonym posted:

I've never understood why people like Vitus so much. Not for me, I found the one I heard underwhelming and quite tiresome to listen to after a while (which I did out of politeness).

Tony,

I use your post to get in but I am not actually replying to you. When I wasn't yet totally Naimified, I happened to listen to a system in a friend's store in Torino, a Burmester CDP, a Vitus Audio integrated and Kharma loudspeakers. Cables were probably Shunyata. So, a typical top-class, audiophile-taste system, almost the opposite, conceptually, to what is usually discussed here.

I was very much struck by it: I had never heard such a mix of smoothness and richness of detail, such a granitic sound stage, a similar ease of presentation. Even the Kharma, which I normally do not like too much, seemed completely ok. But I believe that who's accustomed to Naim has a number of 'taboos', meaning typical 'hifi' traits that are commonly looked for by audiophiles and disregarded completely by a Naim user, who 'knows better'. These include sound stage, unnatural smoothness and 3D effect. As a form of compensation, there is the so-called, ubiquitous PR&T, something I, after 30+ years of Naim, haven't yet fully caught in meaning and essence.

Yet, that Vitus amp sounded excellent, and many I know, who are not into Naim, consider it top class. Being into Naim seems to render the user rather exclusive... And I say this in full awareness – a few days ago I was writing to a guy who was selling his Naim speakers (I didn't buy them in the end and I fear he took it very personally), explaining to him the number of Naim things I have bought and sold in the last ten years, and I somehow lost myself at 40/45. In this time, I couldn't consider anything else. Yet, in some direct comparisons of Naim vs Rest of The World, in a friend's store, it was not uncommon that Naim amps or CDPs simply resulted as good as many other things, not always, necessarily better.

But here, Naim is the paradigm. Yes, loudspeakers are considered (especially those coming from a maker who more or less openly declares a sort of sonic affiliation with Naim, like Harbeth, Kudos, Neat); but electronics from other sides of the world have no easy life here... They may be accepted, discussed, considered: but in terms of comparison, they lose. Always. And how would that be possible otherwise?

It was this type of serene, smiling stubbornness that in the end led me to exit Naim to the point of wanting to give my Naim USB pen drive away... But perhaps it would have been enough to leave the forum. For sure, reading some posts with unbiased mind (read: having no Naim) makes them sound eerily absolutist, spookily 'illuminated', protected by a layer of self-assuredness that can make one smile; but it also, sometimes, makes discussions frustrating, leaving with a feeling of having been put in a rat-hole even before the discussion began.

Cordially.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I can see why some people think that McIntosh stuff looks good, but those meters remind me too much of the 70s. And they are just so big. I guess if you have a big US house it's not an issue. It would be good to hear one some day. 

What is the point of these meters?  I know when music is too loud when my ears start bleeding - boy how I miss Curved Air!

I used to have a Mac pre for about 2 weeks.  I bought it second hand, it was beautifully made (it really was) and sounded very polite.  It had a single valve placed in the middle of the main board, which was incredibly complicated - can't remember the model number now, it was 20+ years ago.  Then a mate saw it and said he had been looking for a good used sample of this model for ages and offered me more than I paid and he still has it I think.

Massimo Bertola posted:

Tony,

I use your post to get in but I am not actually replying to you. When I wasn't yet totally Naimified, I happened to listen to a system in a friend's store in Torino, a Burmester CDP, a Vitus Audio integrated and Kharma loudspeakers. Cables were probably Shunyata. So, a typical top-class, audiophile-taste system, almost the opposite, conceptually, to what is usually discussed here.

I was very much struck by it: I had never heard such a mix of smoothness and richness of detail, such a granitic sound stage, a similar ease of presentation. Even the Kharma, which I normally do not like too much, seemed completely ok. But I believe that who's accustomed to Naim has a number of 'taboos', meaning typical 'hifi' traits that are commonly looked for by audiophiles and disregarded completely by a Naim user, who 'knows better'. These include sound stage, unnatural smoothness and 3D effect. As a form of compensation, there is the so-called, ubiquitous PR&T, something I, after 30+ years of Naim, haven't yet fully caught in meaning and essence.

Yet, that Vitus amp sounded excellent, and many I know, who are not into Naim, consider it top class. Being into Naim seems to render the user rather exclusive... And I say this in full awareness – a few days ago I was writing to a guy who was selling his Naim speakers (I didn't buy them in the end and I fear he took it very personally), explaining to him the number of Naim things I have bought and sold in the last ten years, and I somehow lost myself at 40/45. In this time, I couldn't consider anything else. Yet, in some direct comparisons of Naim vs Rest of The World, in a friend's store, it was not uncommon that Naim amps or CDPs simply resulted as good as many other things, not always, necessarily better.

But here, Naim is the paradigm. Yes, loudspeakers are considered (especially those coming from a maker who more or less openly declares a sort of sonic affiliation with Naim, like Harbeth, Kudos, Neat); but electronics from other sides of the world have no easy life here... They may be accepted, discussed, considered: but in terms of comparison, they lose. Always. And how would that be possible otherwise?

It was this type of serene, smiling stubbornness that in the end led me to exit Naim to the point of wanting to give my Naim USB pen drive away... But perhaps it would have been enough to leave the forum. For sure, reading some posts with unbiased mind (read: having no Naim) makes them sound eerily absolutist, spookily 'illuminated', protected by a layer of self-assuredness that can make one smile; but it also, sometimes, makes discussions frustrating, leaving with a feeling of having been put in a rat-hole even before the discussion began.

Cordially.

Massimo,

Is this frustration the sole factor that has caused you to leave Naim or it is a combination of several elements ? I presume you are aware that this is a manufacturer's forum, not an open forum. Folks who prefer Naim's sound (or gear) over here will outnumber those who prefer gear from other manufacturers inclusive of loudspeakers, though I agree that the "acceptance level" of non-Naim speakers is generally higher than that of amplifiers (maybe sources too). Personally I think Tony's post is a trivial one, based on his preference or opinion which is subjective. We see this all the time on an open forum, comments favouring a SPECIFIC gear be it Naim, Rega, Hegel, Vitus, Devialet etc. Hence, I don't quite understand the fuss of seeing a comment favouring a gear on a manufacturer's forum. As a matter of fact, with manufacturer's forum (I only have experience with Harbeth and Naim forums), I find Naim to be the most lenient when it comes to moderation and discussion that involves gear from other manufacturers. I am not going to go into details on the moderation policy that Harbeth practices and the designer's philosophy with regards to amplifiers, but I guess you would have known.

To quote your remark :-

electronics from other sides of the world have no easy life here... They may be accepted, discussed, considered: but in terms of comparison, they lose. Always. And how would that be possible otherwise?

Again, this is a rehash of the above. It is only with Tony's post that the Vitus "lost". You have to bear in mind that most folks here prefer the Naim sound, hence the Naim is mostly seen as superior or *better* on this forum. Having said that, I have no qualms that there will be *better* sounding gear out there than the Naim, and it's just that we don't get to see that over here too often (or at all). It's just that we get to see that everyday on an open forum, cheap and cheerful gear sounding better than the Naim. :-)

Just out curiosity, may I ask what amps are you using now in your system?  At the end of the day, you must be happy with your choice.

There's a large hole where Vitus used to be, leniency had its limits.

Massimo, in restropect, with your new level of "listening expectations", I have a feeling that you may be slowly converging towards the "all amplifiers sound the same (or almost the same)" camp. This is a good thing actually as there will be less or zero tendency for equipment upgrades.

Moderated Post:  Ryder, please respect forum rules, in particular with regard to cross-forum discussion. I have removed the quoted text and reference to a discussion on another forum.

 Maybe Massimo (and Richard) will disagree but I think it is best to leave threads from other forum on other forum, copying and pasting from one to the other seems  a slight invasion of privacy  and has the shimmer of stalking about it.

SJB

yeti42 posted:

There's a large hole where Vitus used to be, leniency had its limits.

Naim have no problem with the discussion of other manufacturers kit, however, there was evidence that Naim's hospitality was being abused to further another brands commercial advantage.  A very poor show.  

For technical advice, product announcements, etc Naim forum is the obvious place to post.

For unbiased opinions regarding other manufacturer's (including Naim) gear this is most likely not the best place.

I don't think there are too many people promoting Porsche over Ferrari on the Ferrari forums.

I think the issue that "Naim doesn't do the imaging soundstage, smooth and 3D" effect is probably something from the past, and we are talking maybe about the earliest Naim amps of 40 years ago.

I fondly recall AMA's post (you can search for it on this forum) where he said the 282 preamp was one of the best purchases he made in his hi-fi, and has imaging and soundstage qualities as good as the very best amplifiers he has heard, and which cost a lot more money than the 282.

For smoothness, I don't understand, all Naim amps from UQ2 and upwards all the way to 552/500 sound smooth to me, but provided they are properly set up.

In the review by Andrew Everard of the new NAP 250DR, apparently the founder of Naim wanted to create an amplifier that played Rock and Dance music with a "live" sound, and to my ears I can easily demonstrate this to my friends who are curious about my Naim Black boxes with a number of songs from Daft Punk, Metallica, Calvin Harris or Drake !

ryder. posted:

Massimo, in restropect, with your new level of "listening expectations", I have a feeling that you may be slowly converging towards the "all amplifiers sound the same (or almost the same)" camp. This is a good thing actually as there will be less or zero tendency for equipment upgrades.

Ryder,

no, I'm not. Not at all. Funny that you seem to infere, from the fact that I have given up Naim (for now) and praised another amp (two different unrelated things, I assure you), that I might be starting to think that all amps sound the same (or almost the same).

Isn't it a little what I was trying to suggest in my previous, long post?

Best

Max 

ryder. posted:

Massimo, in restropect, with your new level of "listening expectations", I have a feeling that you may be slowly converging towards the "all amplifiers sound the same (or almost the same)" camp. This is a good thing actually as there will be less or zero tendency for equipment upgrades.

Moderated Post:  Ryder, please respect forum rules, in particular with regard to cross-forum discussion. I have removed the quoted text and reference to a discussion on another forum.

Richard - I believe you have moderated my post. Apologies for going against forum rules. I have read the rules previously but seem to have missed the "cross-forum discussion". I will ensure that this will not happen in future.

Richard Dane posted:

yeti42 posted:

There's a large hole where Vitus used to be, leniency had its limits.

Naim have no problem with the discussion of other manufacturers kit, however, there was evidence that Naim's hospitality was being abused to further another brands commercial advantage.  A very poor show.  

Naim's hospitality is certainly something that needs to be emulated by other hifi manufacturers who have their own forums, but I can totally understand the abuse comment, not only commercially but on non-commercial basis as well. One of the reasons the Harbeth forum is very protective in this regard as they need to protect their own interest being in the commercial business.

Massimo Bertola posted:

ryder. posted:

Massimo, in restropect, with your new level of "listening expectations", I have a feeling that you may be slowly converging towards the "all amplifiers sound the same (or almost the same)" camp. This is a good thing actually as there will be less or zero tendency for equipment upgrades.

Ryder,

no, I'm not. Not at all. Funny that you seem to infere, from the fact that I have given up Naim (for now) and praised another amp (two different unrelated things, I assure you), that I might be starting to think that all amps sound the same (or almost the same).

Isn't it a little what I was trying to suggest in my previous, long post?

Best

Max 

 

Massimo,

It is not an inference but a supposition if you re-read my post. With your earlier remark of not being able to perceive a significant enough difference with the Hicap DR (on the 202/200) when you sold it suggests that either the difference (with the Hicap DR) is too small to the point of negligible, or as you have mentioned earlier it is due to the newly gained perspective or expectations of “not caring very much anymore”. With your Hicap DR experience, this is intertwined with the topic of differences between amplifiers as I regard the change or transformation with the power supply (to a Naim amp) to be equivalent to the differences between different grade or make of amplifiers. Your experience with the new Vitus amp was not taken into consideration because when you listened to that amp, it was in an entirely different setup or listening environment with the new room, speakers, cabling etc.

Going back to your previous post about your level of frustration, I would like to add a bit more if you wouldn’t mind. I can somehow relate to what you feel with the kind of responses we are getting (or expecting) on this forum having gone through the same experience on the Harbeth forum. Nevetheless, I can assure you the level of enthusiasm on Naim’s gear on this forum is nothing when compared to the spirit or passion of forum members over at the Harbeth forum which appears to be synonymous with the fanaticism of the moderator which can appear to be condescending at times. That is one of the reasons some folks have opted out of the forum. As a matter of fact, due to the approach by the manufacturer, I am aware that some members are actually quite upset to the point of abandoning the Harbeth and moving on to something else.

I am slightly surprised that after 30 years it is only now you discovered the Hicap does nothing much, or at all to the amps. Having said that, if the change is for the better ie. the quest for higher levels of musical enjoyment rather than frustration or anger reading specific comments on the forum, then the move would be a sensible one. I can understand that people get frustrated when certain individuals, group or organisation exert fist-like despotic control over something which they regard as factual. In other words, being dogmatic in discussions or debates. Fortunately, we don’t see this practice with Naim, but you cannot avoid passionate forum members from expressing their views no matter how subjective they can be.

FWIW although I am a fan of Naim, I am not overly zealous and still consider other makes as being capable of sounding great, even the cheap and cheerful Rega which I seem to dislike (only because I don’t find the Rega-Harbeth match to be good, to my ears and preference). The Rega may well sound excellent with other speakers. As a matter of fact, I have no hesitation in going with a non-Naim amp (actually I am still having a tough time choosing between the 202/200 and a non-Naim integrated for a 2^nd system but the latter seems to hold the advantage at this point). In summary, I don’t quite subscribe to the amp A wins, amp B loses type of argument especially with amplifiers of different makes. A particular gear will sound superior or *better* because it possesses certain characteristics that are aligned to the listening taste or preference of the user, not forgetting the many variables that are involved in room, setup with equipment and speaker placement etc.

I sincerely hope you find musical bliss in your next phase or journey after getting out from Naim, and I am sure you would. Perhaps you could share on the amp that you have in your mind that would be replacing the Naims (or you have got the amps into the system?). Then I could investigate it and perhaps consider it for my 2^nd system as long as it doesn’t cost something like an arm or a leg.

 Cheers.

CariocaJeff posted:

+1 try even the reference series integrated - one of the best systems I have ever heard was the RI100 with the smallest Estellons. If I was ever to have walked into the shop and walked out with a system it would have been that one.

Just checked on the Vitus SIA-025 integrated. Very nice amp and very well-built indeed, weighing in at an impressive 42 kg. But at a price tag of £18,000 it's in the 252/300DR category.

Both the ri-100 & the sia-025 both weigh in at a whopping 42kg, the ri-100 looks like it should weigh that much but the Sia-025 is much shallower so it's quite a surprise as you hear your back creak with the weight when trying to move it!

Don't mean to disrespect anyone here, but I'll take the DACV1/100 anytime instead of paying for 18000 GBP amps 

I recently did a demo of DAC v1/100 with Dynaudio X32 (4 ohm speakers) and one of my friends who owns some GBP 18000 + GBP of other gear (out of politeness I won't say which one) was left quite impressed with the Naim/Dynaudio combo. It was the pure energy and musicality of Naim on this combo which left me with a huge smile on my face 

Knipester posted:

Both the ri-100 & the sia-025 both weigh in at a whopping 42kg, the ri-100 looks like it should weigh that much but the Sia-025 is much shallower so it's quite a surprise as you hear your back creak with the weight when trying to move it!

No disrespect to your choices, but a small question : does a heavy amplifier mean that it is better ? 

My NAP 250 DR is only 16 KG, so should I worry now?

analogmusic posted:

Knipester posted:

Both the ri-100 & the sia-025 both weigh in at a whopping 42kg, the ri-100 looks like it should weigh that much but the Sia-025 is much shallower so it's quite a surprise as you hear your back creak with the weight when trying to move it!

No disrespect to your choices, but a small question : does a heavy amplifier mean that it is better ? 

My NAP 250 DR is only 16 KG, so should I worry now?

All things being equal- yes.  The weight in the SIA 025 comes from the humongous transformer.  Not your usual toroidal but a UI .  which has been said as being responsible for contributing most of the quality towards sound. Also the material construction with solid mill case contributes if scienced in.

If your using the 250 dr with a Fraim then you don't need to worry, but without a Fraim - issue of weight might be something to worry about.

ryder,

thanks for the considered and insightful reply. You touch a lot of sensible points, and I agree on most of what you say. I don't want to steal the thread, though, so I'll summarise.

As an old friend who ran an audio store in Torino in the 90s used to say, If you hear a difference, it's real. I can still hear differences, but I have somehow lost interest in them. A system like the one I had is 'high maintenance' (to quote Harry Burns), and I have also lost most interest in the amount of quality in the reproduction: in the end, it's still life. A picture, perennially identical to itself.

I thank you for the wishes: but I am not after bliss, nor after happiness of some kind; because I know that no audio system can give them. I am, in turn, happy for those who experience bliss or happiness while playing records at home, because theirs are the real low expectations, theirs is the really low contentment threshold.

Best, bye

M

I have both systems in the same room.

Naim system: NDS/555DR/252DR/300DR

McIntosh system: PS Audio DirectStream/C1100 preamp/MC452 power amp

Honestly, the McIntosh system sounds quite a bit better than the Naim in this setup, with the same speakers and in the same room.

Bottom line: don't look down on the Mac.