Small integrated amps compared. Naim vs McIntosh

Massimo Bertola posted:

ryder,

: in the end, it's still life. A picture, perennially identical to itself.

Hence the very definition of Flat Earth.   Consider perspective and everything belongs to a single vanishing point.   When this pioneering mechanism of art was discovered the religious patrons decreed that the earth was flat and any deviations would be sacrilegious. Since modern times and the exploded diagram with multiple points of perspective an image can resemble itself more.

Massimo Bertola posted:

ryder,

thanks for the considered and insightful reply. You touch a lot of sensible points, and I agree on most of what you say. I don't want to steal the thread, though, so I'll summarise.

As an old friend who ran an audio store in Torino in the 90s used to say, If you hear a difference, it's real. I can still hear differences, but I have somehow lost interest in them. A system like the one I had is 'high maintenance' (to quote Harry Burns), and I have also lost most interest in the amount of quality in the reproduction: in the end, it's still life. A picture, perennially identical to itself.

I thank you for the wishes: but I am not after bliss, nor after happiness of some kind; because I know that no audio system can give them. I am, in turn, happy for those who experience bliss or happiness while playing records at home, because theirs are the real low expectations, theirs is the really low contentment threshold.

Best, bye

M

Well, I experience great happiness and contentment when I listen at home, and great sadness too when the music portrays it. If that means I have low expectations, I'm really pleased I do. Actually, I think I have pretty high expectations, but I can still be happy and content listening to music on my little stereo. Maybe it's just that I try not to analyse things, but just enjoy them for what they are. 

T38.45 posted:

I came from MC2500 pre and 275 tubes to MSB DAC and 250DR. There is only one rule: if you like the sound give a s..t about tests and what others say:-) You can't go wrong with Mcintosh and you can't go wrong with Naim if you like the sound. I sold the Mc's because I skipped the pre-amp and use the MSB DAC as a preamp now. The integrated amps, pre- and poweramps from McIntosh are great, the DAC is a mess (USB errors, wrong display etc.). 

Ralf

I have owned McIntosh electronics in the past. I have taken the tour in Binghamton of their plant. They are incredibly well made and like Naim, they are iconoclastic in their solid state designs. Naim makes some of the only Solid State amps that are fully regulated and McIntosh is the only solid state amp that I am aware of that uses output transformers in the same manner as a valve amp. The result in my opinion is that these brands have the most significant "house sound" out there. I eventually wound up with NAIM because they had a better streaming solution in the Nac-N 272 and across their line and I also felt Naim was faster while McIntosh was more lush. I hesitiate to criticize either as I think they both have some of the highest manufacturing quality and also both have some of the better resale as a result. If you have a chance to own a McIntosh amp I wouldn't discourage anyone, they are terrific and the people making them take extreme pride and many have worked at the factory for decades or are even second generation there. The history of McIntosh is also amazing. I found the Naim system I listen to more and is more engaging but some might also be a factor of I finally have my digital mustic well organized and easy to use and also now have multi-room. My advice is listen to them both and if anyone wants to tell you that one of them is junk, they are full of s***, they both are terrific and I wouldn't hesitate to buy something again from either brand if they came up with something new that fit with my needs. The McIntosh 275 Valve amp is also probably the most legendary tube amp around, I have spent time listening to it, if you want the classic tube sound and a just great warm tube amp I think you can't do any better.

Few days ago I wrote to McIntosh lab for to ask what they thought to add a power amplifier as the MC152 to pre out of an Superuniti. Today I received the answer from Binghamton laboratories

Hinton Chuck writes

The Naim Superuniti preamp out only puts out ¾ of a volt, McIntosh amplifiers need 2.5 volts to drive to full power, so it will not work well.

Who explains to me in more detail which it means, the Naim has different impedances?

Anto68 posted:

Few days ago I wrote to McIntosh lab for to ask what they thought to add a power amplifier as the MC152 to pre out of an Superuniti. Today I received the answer from Binghamton laboratories

Hinton Chuck writes

The Naim Superuniti preamp out only puts out ¾ of a volt, McIntosh amplifiers need 2.5 volts to drive to full power, so it will not work well.

Who explains to me in more detail which it means, the Naim has different impedances?

Probably does but that is not what he means.  The 'line out' signal is a standard that used to get adhered to but doesn't much now.  It would generally mean a signal of at least 100mV but when CD appeared the output voltage was specifies to be 3V in the Red Book I guess, so I am a bit surprised that the SU is only 0.75V output.  So if you had a Valve amp of classic design then you would have your volume control down very low when playing CD back!  But saying that the output of a superuniti will probably drive the Mac very loud anyway, assuming that it is a typical American powerhouse.  The SuperU has a good low output impedance (22 ohm) on the analog output so you will have no "drive" problems.  The only issue is that if the Mac is fairly low power and your are driving very inefficient speakers then you may not get sufficient volumes to get blown out of your seat by the music you love/.

As to impedance you would not want the power amp to have a lower input impedance than the output impedance of the pre-amp.  Valve pre-amps were designed, not surprisingly, to drive valve power amps and these have a very high input impedance.  In fact so high that a resistor of (~100k) is placed between signal and ground to prevent oscillation at the mega ohm input impedance of a typical valve input stage.  Tranny amps, on the other hand, have a relatively low input impedance and would thus need a pre-amp that could drive this low impedance and unless the valve pre-amp used something like a 'Cathode Follower' as an output stage then it would struggle and many valve designers have reservations about 'Cathode Followers'. 

Do you think the Mac would be better than a similar price NAIM amp?  I personally would buy the NAIM, unless of course the Mac sounded a lot better.

I suppose the stock answer is to get the Mac and whatever else takes your fancy and have a good dem.

Thank you for the reply Big Bill, very clear and interesting your topic. I'm not going to buy now a power amp Mac or even Naim, I think that a SU has a lot of sense and value as it is. 

Regard

Anto68 posted:

Thank you for the reply Big Bill, very clear and interesting your topic. I'm not going to buy now a power amp Mac or even Naim, I think that a SU has a lot of sense and value as it is. 

Regard

That sounds sensible to me, the amp in the SU is pretty damn good anyway.  I meant to say that in my previous post but did not want to offend, thinking you might have made your mind up to upgrade it.  I have a UnitiLITE and I love it but when we eventually finish our back room, which is bigger than our front living room and will be the main music room then I am going to buy a SU for in there.

Cheers Ant.