Upgrade path for 272 & 250DR

I have heard very significant improvements in sound quality by improving the "rack," as have many others on this forum.  A good (sounding) rack will be light, stiff, very linear (tight, with no rattle or micro-rattle), and allow ventilation for the power amp.  Fraim and similar have "holes" in the shelf, which reduce mass, reduce acoustic "drum" excitation from sound in the room, and aid ventilation.  The use of glass on ball bearings on mdf shelves is very effective.  Placing the TV and related equipment on the same rack as the audio gear will compromise the best performance.

It is vibration of the equipment which, perhaps surprisingly, can degrade the sound quality.  So a good rack will both minimize vibration, and assure that what remains is "clean."  Naim equipment is designed and built to high standards to mitigate these vibration effects, but can attain their best performance only on a proper rack.  It is often equipment vibration which introduces harshness and "edge" to the music at higher volume levels - well below the level where an amplifier begins to distort the signal.  I first learned this with a NAP150, some years ago.

Ultimate sound quality is likely often compromised by other, domestic considerations for rack configurations.  Unfortunately, many audiophiles may not realize what they might be sacrificing in sound quality unless they are willing to do some experimenting.

Charlie

Steve GTX posted:

I really have an open mind but it's an interesting topic and as always, it's all part of the journey.

Just to throw a spanner in the works. -I was in a very upmarket HiFi shop in Central London recently and had a look around - I was like a kid in a candy store.

The Manager played a recording via Naim 272 and a Naim amp (not sure what one) and through Focal Sopra Stand Mounted Speakers and he asked what I thought. I told him that although it was nice, I thought it was lacking.

He then placed 3 Steelpoints Ultra SS Isolators under the 272 and played the same track again and I honestly thought that it was a different recording the difference was that big.

He assured me that it was the same recording.

The kit t was obviously on a good stand, with quality cables and in a specialist listening room.

 

 

 

 

 

So, you have heard the effects that equipment vibration can have on the sound quality.  Much has been written on this forum about this, so search is your friend.  Naim , in my opinion, have been long at the forefront of mechanical design for taming vibrations.  They do not use "points" under their gear, as the equipment case, feet, and the Fraim rack are designed to work well together as a system.  However, this is a complicated issue, and the "best" (or "better") solution is situation dependent.  Sometimes the "points," or other isolation devices, can improve on a given arrangement.  Let your ears be a guide.  

Charlie

Is there a way of isolating the TV?

Unfortunately, the TV can't be placed elsewhere or wall mounted.

ChrisSU posted:

Patu posted:

I'm quite surprised that equipment rack comes as first option on the upgrade path by many experienced Naim enthusiasts here. I'd definitely first experiment with XPS DR, then with cables and last, by a big margin, would come an equipment rack. I've just recently made lots of experiments in my setup in all of these areas and that's the order in which they made differences in my setup. I've never experienced big changes in sound quality by changing equipment racks or putting spikes under one etc. Changing equipment or cables though, huge differences available there. Under speakers there were very small differences between different spike shoes and I ended up with Naim fraim chips before Linn skeet and few other contenders. 

I guess that depends largely on what you're comparing - going from a heavy sideboard with a TV on top to Fraim Lite, for example, I'd be surprised if you didn't hear a pretty substantial improvement. On the other hand, going from say, Quadraspire to full Fraim, the law of diminishing returns states to kick in. 

Well that's true. I've had Norstone Esse for almost as long as I've been in the Naim bandwagon. It has glass shelves, metal frame and is quite heavy built with sturdy feeling. Only recently I replaced the basic felt stickers you use under furniture with Oyaide spikes and spikeshoes on Esse. I feel clear difference (with my hand placed on the equipment) on how much vibration transmits to the equipment while playing music but I can't say for 100% certainty that it made any difference in sound quality. But it gave me ease of mind and every now and then, that's enough. 

Do some experimenting.  For example, try listening to music with the TV in place, and then with the TV removed.  This will tell you if having the TV on the rack is an issue worthy of further effort.  If there are vibration issues with the TV, then perhaps some form of isolation will help.  You could place a felt pad under the base; or put three dome muts under the base.  Again, listen for changes to the sound, which may or may not be an "improvement."  

Hopefully, you will find a happy compromise.  Don't let us talk you out of enjoying your music!

Charlie

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you can't use Fraim, which is the best, you look at Quadraspire or Hutter, who both make extra wide ones. For example, you can get a double width SVT, which would be perfect with a telly on top. They really are very good, well made, and look really nice.

I'd agree with this advice. Full-fat Fraim is probably the best sounding but Quadraspire SVT with bronze spikes supporting the top shelf is close in performance.  It also has three advantages: it is narrower so easier to accommodate; cheaper (relatively); and it stays in tune. By that I mean it doesn't need occasional dismantling and rebuilding to make sure all the cups and balls etc are optimally aligned.  

PS no disrespect intended to the many full-fat Fraim users on here