ND5 XS Vs NDX vs NDAC

This is a difficult one... You need to decide for yourself which way you want to head in terms of system complexity and flexibility.

In my opinion the easiest to set up and operate will be the following set up:
NAS (to store your music) + streamer / renderer (e.g. NDX).

I would not go down a route of setting up a MacMini and a DAC.

If you already own CDX2 + XPS the 'only' streamer you should be looking at is NDX.
I would start with a 'bare' NDX, get used to it for 6 months or so and then start thinking about upgrades (e.g. XPS or nDAC). A good pre-loved NDX can be had for around GBP 2500.

In terms of performance, this is how I would rate NDX with nDAC and PSU:

1. NDX
2. NDX + XPS
3. NDX + nDAC
4. NDX + nDAC + XPS

One can also use 555PS in place of XPS, but 555PS is a specialise weapon and can 'destabilise' the overall sound if not used carefully.

Adam

Having owned a CDS2, and owning SL2s now, I'd say that you really should be looking at an NDS to get the same quality. If that's too much, which I suspect it is, bearing in mind that the NDS needs a power supply, I'd go with the NDX. 

I was initially going to suggest NDS + 555PS. It is a beautifuly sounding streamer. Some can be had on a second-hand market, although must be checked carefully - repairing one can be costly I was told.

I use a NDX in a 82,Supercap and 250 system sounds superb mine was an ex demo under  12 months old at a substantial saving this is the route I would take to start with.

Are you sure you want to stream? I've just had my CDS3 serviced to great effect.

Chris

Christopher_M posted:

Are you sure you want to stream? I've just had my CDS3 serviced to great effect.

Chris

Of course he does - hence the post and we will help him spend a lot of money doing that 

But a good question nevertheless.

Haha, Adam! My general thought is that when we ask about motivation we help to uncover the best course of action.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

Haha, Adam! My general thought is that when we ask about motivation we help to uncover the best course of action.

C.

Of course - the famous 'question behind the question' type of thing...

SpecCled Trout posted:

 

My question is this, is the character of the NDAC more akin to the ND5 or the NDX?

To my ears the NDX has the wonderful space and sweetness that you get with the CDS2 (surely Naim's sweetest every sounding CD player).

I would appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

I spent 9 months comparing the Ndac to the CDS2, I'd describe them as chalk and cheese.

The Ndac has better bass and wider soundstage, but sounds unnatural in comparison, emphasising cymbals, hihats etc. This gave the impression of  a more detailed sound, but the CDS2 actually produced more refined/detailed pleasant presentation IMO.

SpecCled Trout posted:

I appreciate there are a number of topics on this subject however I would be interested in opinions that I don't think have been covered by the various posts I have read. Of course, ultimately I appreciate only mine own ears will tell, however I would appreciate some guidance.

I am totally new to the world of streaming, the last time I went to a hifi shop and bought something was when I got a pair of SL2s to hang on to the end of my system (CDS2, XPS2, 52/Supercap, NAP135s, SL2s)

So this week I ventured into my local hifi shop having been enlightened to the world of high end streaming to audition an ND5 and an NDX. Having read many reviews saying they were both excellent and very close in performance, that was not my experience at all. I had also read one review that said that the ND5 with a power supply was even better than the NDX.

My experience is that they were both very detailed, however the ND5 was so 'in your face'. The detail was there but as the music ramped up in complexity it seemed hard and congested.

The NDX was a world apart to my ears. There was so much more perspective between all the instruments, so much more colour and texture.

The ND5 with the matching power supply was better but still very forward and in your face.

I am now considering an NDAC, partly due to cost as a fully updated NDAC can be had second hand for half the cost of the ND5, and even including the cost of a Mac Mini as a streaming source would still give me a lot of change over a new ND5.

My question is this, is the character of the NDAC more akin to the ND5 or the NDX?

To my ears the NDX has the wonderful space and sweetness that you get with the CDS2 (surely Naim's sweetest every sounding CD player).

I would appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

Better sound quality than than some of these can be had - read some of the threads on Hugo with Audirvana. And if you use a Mac Mini as 'streaming source' which I take to mean instead of a NAS (and it does work well in that function, extremely quietly), then you're nearly halfway there already.

Mr Speccled Trout, if you do use a streaming source such as the NDX, and they are very convienient, I so strongly advise you to also keep your CDX2.. The CDP is special and renders music in a unique way... Sure you might use your streamer for the majority, but there will be some discs that just sound best on the CDX2. 

I went streaming, at effectively the expense of all sources apart from FM. I ended up reinstating my CDX2, as I realised I was missing out some times.. But true the CDX2 really does need a higher end Naim amp to be really appreciated, where as the NDX, or even the NDS seems to work well across the range of Naim amps..... all in my personal experience of course.

BTW the NDAC is neither like the CDX2 or NDS.. It has its own style.. In fact I would say class of sound.. a slightly organic and bass strong sound really digging out rhythms... The CDX2 boogies and swings, and the NDS is refined , delicate and relatively quite light of touch ... with great insight and detail. To me the NDX sounds like a very much diluted CDX2 with perhaps a little more apparent resolution.. but if I am honest missing the magic of the CDX2.

Simon

Simon,

thank you for your thoughts and the principle of keeping the CDP. It is however a CDSII not a CDX. I believe the sound quality of the two is quite different. I would describe the CDS2 as organic and very sweet, with great detail. Quite different to other Naim CD players I have owned or listened to. 

David

David, thanks, I am afraid I am not familiar with the CDS2, but you clearly are.. and you love it.. so yes enjoy those new sources, but leave your CDP input on your Preamp connected to your CDS2.. If you are like me, you will end up with a small constantly changing collection of your discs by the CDP that sound uniquely enjoyable on that player.. and perhaps your streamer for everything else?

i think some try and homogenise their sources into one.. where as I believe one can celebrate and enjoy the diversity of different sources..... as with many things in life 

And the question behind the question?

I have not bought a new CD for sometime, most of my music now is bought either on iTunes or vinyl (the new vinyl is great, no more searching for 180gm pressings!).

It is only recently that I have come to realise there are far better ways to source digital music than iTunes and have started using Tidal, albeit with no audiophile connection to my system at present.

I have a decent system that was put together before children, school fees etc and so my budget is not as generous as it once was.

My thoughts are to switch out of my CDP and move over to digital streaming. This also improves the paranoia factor of having the sticky fingers of my young boys stuffing up the CDS2 (it has had the transport replaced once already and they are getting scarce).

Streaming would seem to provide a near CDS2 quality source, with a lot more variety available, Tidal, Internet Radio etc and a Mac Mini could provide a low cost, highly flexible streaming source (also linked to my now transferred CD collection on the NAS).

The Mac approach, as well as being lower budget would also allow me to easily switch between a Hugo, and nDAC or similar.

What is proving harder is being able to audition an nDAC (or Hugo) in this set up.

The audition of the ND5 and NDX proved easy, with the NDX being closer in style to the CDS2, and my taste.

So my drivers are cost, quality, convenience and variety - probably in that order.

But why do you feel the need to 'switch' and 'move over' ... can't you simply add to? I suspect the money you would get from selling the CDS2 now is far less than the value you get from it.  if you are really worried about little fingers, put the CDP on the top shelf.. Mine survived two little ones growing up with it... But my CD-ROM drive on my then PC suffered the indignity of a chocolate biscuit being jammed into it..  

I would skip a MAC, since you alredy own a NAS. Just install a server software on it - Minimserver is good and it's free.

For a seamless streaming integration of server music, Tidal, Spotify, internet radio and even FM/DAB nothing will beat an NDX (with an optional FM module - I love mine).

NDX will also act as a good DAC - it has a plethora of digital inputs.

I also echo Simon's words - streaming for a bulk of your music, but CD for those special discs.

I don't subscribe to the idea of having a CD player for those 'special' discs and prefer to minimise the clutter of black boxes as much as possible. Prior to getting into streaming I had a CDS2 with 82 and 250, sold the lot and bought a SuperUniti, which I've subsequently improved to a 272/250DR. The current setup is just as enjoyable as the CDS2 ever was. On the basis of being happy with the 52/135 and that they do not need their 10 year service, and that the XPS2 actually is an XPS2 is black rather than an olive XPS (just checking) the easiest and probably best thing to go is sell the CDS2 head unit and slot in a used NDS. The cost of that would be about £3,000 to £4,000.  As you already have your CDs on a NAS it seems pointless getting a Mac mini etc. Alternatively, an NDX powered by your XPS2 would also be good, and you could later add an nDac. If you are anywhere near Chichester and want to hear my setup, let me know; it may help your decision making. 

I have problems with regarding CD disc's as special,  CD is 16/44 & if the music is special they invariably reissued it as 24-bit & re-mastered it for the better.    The difference between 16-bit & 24-bit is a whole step change in SQ & I really don't see the point of CD replay these days.

HH,

I appreciate your thoughtful response and appreciate you also enjoyed a CDS2.

What I am not getting my head around is that a NDX plus XPS2 (it is a black XPS2) feeding into a DAC would seem a very expensive mechanism for streaming. Would it really be better than a Mac Mini with Audirvana? I don't understand why having all my CDs on a NAS negates getting a MM. Wherever the music is stored I still need a 'renderer/streamer'?

The 135s are about due for a recap so another element to factor into the budget.

Sadly I am miles away from Chichester as I would have enjoyed your invitation.

David

SpecCled Trout posted:

I have not bought a new CD for sometime, most of my music now is bought either on iTunes or vinyl (the new vinyl is great, no more searching for 180gm pressings!).

It is only recently that I have come to realise there are far better ways to source digital music than iTunes and have started using Tidal, albeit with no audiophile connection to my system at present.

 

I'm afraid that the iTunes purchases are wholly unsuitable for the class of home replay you're discussing.  They obviously are "lossy" incarnations, and frankly any discussion of which of these streamer players would sound best playing them is a bit silly.  Chalk it up to a learning experience, and at least for me those files are fine for use in the car, or on the iPhone on an airplane, for background music when you travel, etc etc.   

For the sake of economy, I find the most cost-effective way to acquire new digital music can be to buy a used cd and rip it yourself.  Of course that yields only redbook (16-44) resolution; hi res downloads get expensive!

David

Why do you feel you need an nDAC?

A lot of experienced forum members have advised you to set up a simple system - use your NAS as a source of music (this is what you alredy own) and set up an NDX, perhaps powered by your existing XPS.

This is as simple as it gets.

Of course - it's your money and what you do with it is entirely up to you. But I don't think you fill find many of forum members 'approving' your preconception of mac / dac etc It's a good set up, but why bother if there are simpler solutions.

Regardless - once you make your mind up, feel free to post again, should you require any set up help.

Adam

Bart posted:

SpecCled Trout posted:

I have not bought a new CD for sometime, most of my music now is bought either on iTunes or vinyl (the new vinyl is great, no more searching for 180gm pressings!).

It is only recently that I have come to realise there are far better ways to source digital music than iTunes and have started using Tidal, albeit with no audiophile connection to my system at present.

 

I'm afraid that the iTunes purchases are wholly unsuitable for the class of home replay you're discussing.  They obviously are "lossy" incarnations, and frankly any discussion of which of these streamer players would sound best playing them is a bit silly.  Chalk it up to a learning experience, and at least for me those files are fine for use in the car, or on the iPhone on an airplane, for background music when you travel, etc etc.   

For the sake of economy, I find the most cost-effective way to acquire new digital music can be to buy a used cd and rip it yourself.  Of course that yields only redbook (16-44) resolution; hi res downloads get expensive!

Fully agree - skip the iTunes. Why pay the same for an MP3 if you can get a CD for the same money or even less?

One of my big gripes with iTunes and Amazon is the absence of lossless recordings. I don't even want hi-res, just provide all the data that was there already.

Hello David,

I'm going to suggest you get the 135s recapped first if they are due. Get that out of the way because they are essentially amplifying whatever is being fed upstream.

Now the bad news. I'm going to humbly suggest you keep saving for a NDS and power supply. I have a CDS3, and I know the CDS2 very well, and I don't think you will be happy with a NDX (with or without DAC). I have a SBT into DAC/XPS2 and honesty it gets the most use out of all my sources. I bought the SBT first since it was so economical and to try streaming. Then I added a DAC and finally a XPS2. The convenience factor of streaming/network playing is unmatched. But I still get the most musical enjoyment from my CDS3/XPS2. It's so much more easier to get lost in the sweet, organic, and analog sound of that machine.

I listened to a NDX and was not impressed. I've also listened to a NDS, a few times actually, and although I still feel it's too expensive, it's definitely closer to the musical enjoyment level of the CDS3 than the NDX - by a long shot. Only now that I've optimized a few things, I'm starting to feel the upgrade to a NDS is inevitable.

As HH mentioned, you can use the NDS with the XPS2. Don't get rid of the CDS2 head unit, either leave it in the system or pack it away, but use the XPS2 with the NDS. If you want to use the CDS2, just switch back - easy.

If you just want to try streaming, perhaps a MM into a DAC/Hugo would be more economical at this time. Not a bad idea to see if you like it. You already have a NAS so perhaps try another network player instead? I just don't think it's very economical to get NDX and DAC, for that money the NDS is a much better investment.

And yes, we do love spending other people's money here

Arun

Arun - perfect summary and advice!