ND5 XS Vs NDX vs NDAC

Bart, et al,

I fully understand the limitations of iTunes, that is for the iPod and the car.

I reiterate that my interest in streaming has been triggered by the availability of a high quality streaming source, TIDAL being one of them. I am sure there are others.


Adam,

I am not sure I fully understand your question, why do I need an nDAC.

I am exploring different possibilities of getting a quality streaming sound on a relative budget. One of those options is an nDAC with a source such as a MM which some other experienced members on this forum claim to have had great success with. Indeed Surely running an nDAC with a bunch of FLACs on a USB might be the best quality sound for the money of any system, if defeating the object of the convenience of streaming!

I was hopeful that given that the electronics and DAC design in an ND5 are probably twenty years more modern than my CDS2, combined with rave reviews, that an ND5 would have fit my needs. However on auditioning it is not a sound I could live with so I am now exploring other options, of which this is one.

Put bluntly, for the price of a new ND5 XS I could buy a MM, a second hand fully updated nDAC and get my 135s recapped. Not surprisingly this is an attractive option. And at least in my mind a simple and flexible option.

Arun,

"If you just want to try streaming, perhaps a MM into a DAC/Hugo would be more economical at this time. Not a bad idea to see if you like it." 

I think this might be a good summary of exactly where I am at.

My bigger challenge is that with different financial priorities than when I originally built my system, spending upwards of £4k on a single component may not be an option. I would happily buy an NDS tomorrow if money was not object

David

I hope you do realise you cannot connect a computer to an nDAC. You will need a DAC V1 for that - it has a asynchrous USB input.

Good luck,

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

David

I hope you do realise you cannot connect a computer to an nDAC. You will need a DAC V1 for that - it has a asynchrous USB input.

Good luck,

Adam

A Mac Mini's optical output will mate up with the Naim Dac just fine.

Bart posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

David

I hope you do realise you cannot connect a computer to an nDAC. You will need a DAC V1 for that - it has a asynchrous USB input.

Good luck,

Adam

A Mac Mini's optical output will mate up with the Naim Dac just fine.

True - I stand corrected.

There's fair range of views on thiis thread. As I've already indicated, and Arun has nicely summarised, the MM/Hugo approach is excellent value for money, and other people as well as I have reported a sound quality better than ND5XS with XP5XS, and better than NDX,. There was a recent thread with contributions on Hugo vs nDAC, which may be worth checking out, though as always its largely a collection of recommendations based on individual experience withouut much in the way of direct comparison.

On a different matter discussed here, i fail to see the CD can be better than streaming of a CD rip or downloaded same version argument: the whole red book argument applies to both, while CD can suffer from any mechanical aberations of the player. Meanwhile of course streaming opens op higher resolutions, albeit that red book theory tells us they can't sound better - but with streaming younhave the option. I ripped my entire CD collection - and vinyl - and have never looked back, but for as long as your curent CD player keeps working there's no reason for not keeping it: and try with whatever streaming DAC you use.

re Mac Mini output, IIRC the best sound quality is bypassing its internal soundcard, including the optical output, which Audirvana allows/encourages. But with USB use an isolator to remaove the RF noise etc.

And finally, if you've bought a large collection of mp3 quality music, whilst it won't give the same souncd quality as lossless files, that doesn't mean you wont enjoy listening, and might possibly sound better through a better DAC, until such time as you are able to replace any wirthwhile.

If you don't "need" the networked replay for which the ND-series players were designed, I'd certainly think about the Mac Mini / dac combo.  Given the low cost of the Hugo, it seems silly not to try it before trying other (much) more expensive alternatives (Naim Dac or ND-series player).  You can buy a Hugo on Ebay, and at the very least you can sell it that way if you don't warm up to it.  For me, at it's price, you don't need to worry about home demo's etc; just buy it and sell it off for little to no loss if you don't want to keep it.

Bart,

what do you mean by 'networked replay'? As I say I am making my first steps into understanding streaming and this is a new concept to me.

What does the 'streaming/rendering/control' part of the NDx component do that say a MM/Audirvarna does not, or vice versa?

My understanding of the world is that there is a 'transport' for digital rendering, a DAC, an analogue amplifier and then a transducer in a digital system.

The transport could be a CD, dedicated streamer, computer - all of which play analogous roles.

Is this correct or is there something I am missing (which is easily possible!)?

Thanks,

David

Hi David -

What I mean by 'networked replay' is that the ND-series players are designed (but can be used otherwise) to be connected to your home network via an ethernet cable.  So you can have a music server someplace in your home, connected to your home network, the ND-series player also is connected to the network (by an ethernet cable), as is your iPhone or Android Phone (on wifi of course) running the Naim App.  In such a configuration, the Naim App tells your ND-series player which music to ask to be served to it by your server.  They all 'talk to' each other over your home network, the heart of which is your isp's modem and router.  All of these parts are connected up to your basic home network that router that your isp has provided.

If you wanted a second system in your home, you could simply connect a second player to the home network, and it would be happy. It'll talk to the same server, with the same Naim App, and play any of the music on your server.

This is one way to play music from a hard drive in your home.

Another way is to connect the playback source (such as a Mac Mini) directly to a dac.  Here, the files do not travel over your home network, but rather directly from the Mac Mini to the dac.  Just a different approach.  Not very suitable for using the Mac Mini to feed two systems in the home . . . but a bit easier to set up as you don't need to "fuss" with learning how to get a server up and running (which isn't that hard, but does give some grief to some people).  You CAN use an ND-series player this way as well, but the Naim App on an iPhone won't control it.  You'd need to control the Mac remotely, which I'm sure some people do.  I use the networked / music server approach however.

My music server is a $300 QNAP nas.  It functions very well as a music server, and I can serve music to either or both of my home systems (NDS in the living room, Qute2 in the loft).  I personally prefer this, as my 2 systems share 1 music library one 1 server.  I simply select what to control using the Naim App. Works like a charm!

Thank you Bart - great explanation.

At present it is not a pressing need as I only have one system in the house, and I do not see me going down the MM route precluding that as my music FLACs could easily be moved to a 'server' if needed.

Well you need SOMETHING to get the digital files to whatever you're going to get (a dac, or an NDX, etc.).  If you dont want to network things and use a nas for a server, you'll need a Mac Mini or other dedicated "box" to connect up. 

(Audirvana on a Mac will sound much better than iTunes AND let you play flac files AND give you access to Tidal.)   To get into the world of online streaming (eg Tidal) and downloads . . Mac Mini + external dac is quite cost effective and full-featured!

PS in your first post you mentioned not liking the sound of the NDS, but that adding "its matching power supply" changed it.  The NDS requires a power supply; maybe you heard the ND5XS first? An external power supply is optional with the ND5XS and the NDX, but positively required with the NDS.

Bart,

I only listened to the ND5, I shortened its moniker, perhaps this has been misread for NDS.

I have not auditioned an NDS - I was afraid this would involve mortgaging off the children!

PS My FLACS are currently on an external SSD hard drive which can be attached to the network or externally to a MM or similar. And I agree, I have no intention of using iTunes for anything!!!

"I was afraid this would involve mortgaging off the children!"

Depending on how many you have, you could consider straddling the best of both worlds...

Well I now have a Naim nDAC in my possession.

I have been running it most of the day, initially just as is and now as I type with an XPS.

It is certainly different to the CDS2! It is also very different to the ND5 XS or the NDX in terms of sound.

I am currently running an incomplete system as I am feeding the DAC with USB sticks.

With CD ripped FLACs it is very good, even without the XPS. With 24bit files from various sources it is amazing. The detail and clarity are incredible.

These are initial perspectives.

LIKES

Detail, detail, detail

Immediacy

Soundstage, large, and tangibly solid

Bass extension

Rhythm

Composure with complex, layered tracks that take lesser beings down!

DISLIKES

Upper frequencies a little forward

It really shows up poor recordings, less user friendly over a wider range of my music collection. I guess the window us being opened wider.

I will live with it for a couple of weeks. My initial view is that it is a keeper. I am going try it later with a CD73-KS as a transport - if nothing else it will be fun!

I echo your findings. And I love my nDAC. 

Good interconnect is either of the TQs. 

PS I downloaded a 24bit album from Qobuz that is ALAC format and the DAC ignores it. It seems to play everything else.

Any thoughts?

Are you using the same memory stick?

nDAC can be a bit picky when it comes to them....

Same memory stick.

Interestingly, and unrelated, my larger memory stick stops working when I plug in the XPS! Weird or what?!

I converted them to FLACs at the same resolution and they played perfectly. Odd!

Are you sure that the Dac supports hi res ALAC files from the USB ports?

There has been forum chat in the past about nDAC not playing ALAC,  a quick read seems to hint that ALAC has a bug or some type of formatting issue.   Have you tried converting ALAC to WAV & back again,  I ask because I had issues playing a particular FLAC file & converted to WAV & it fixed it, I then converted back to FLAC & it was OK - (I normally only use WAV) 

SpecCled Trout posted:

Well I now have a Naim nDAC in my possession.

I have been running it most of the day, initially just as is and now as I type with an XPS.

It is certainly different to the CDS2! It is also very different to the ND5 XS or the NDX in terms of sound.

I am currently running an incomplete system as I am feeding the DAC with USB sticks.

With CD ripped FLACs it is very good, even without the XPS. With 24bit files from various sources it is amazing. The detail and clarity are incredible.

These are initial perspectives.

LIKES

Detail, detail, detail

Immediacy

Soundstage, large, and tangibly solid

Bass extension

Rhythm

Composure with complex, layered tracks that take lesser beings down!

DISLIKES

Upper frequencies a little forward

It really shows up poor recordings, less user friendly over a wider range of my music collection. I guess the window us being opened wider.

 

I will live with it for a couple of weeks. My initial view is that it is a keeper. I am going try it later with a CD73-KS as a transport - if nothing else it will be fun!

I Went from cdx2 to Ndx to Ndx-xps to Ndx-ndac-xps to USB/spdif interface ndac-xps. The last option is definitively better than the three first. I would choose the ndac and a really good USB-interface from MacBook or macmini. Audirvana is a really good program with integrated streaming and tidal/ qoboz steam, and the program enhances soundquality further. I have a Teddy USB/spdf which I think gives a bit more analogue feel with no treble harshness. The ndac has great prat, fantastisk deep bass and excelent detail. 

Good luck!

fred

SpecCled Trout posted:

 

 

I will live with it for a couple of weeks. My initial view is that it is a keeper. I am going try it later with a CD73-KS as a transport - if nothing else it will be fun!

Before you make a final decision, after a couple of weeks swap the CDS2 in, let it warm up for a day and play a few CD's.

Regarding the upper frequencies being a little forward " as an observation to the NDAC, this is from being sensitive to what's used to feed the digital signal and the digital cable at input.   

At present there are no cables - it is simply a USB stick at the moment. I think it is relative to the CDS2 which is why I say thay are initial impressions.

I think the source material has a huge impact. Modern, popular music CDs have a very aggressive mix which exacerbates it. Reference recordings and older CDs produced in a different era are much better to listen too.

I think the real issue is the 'window' is simply being opened wider but the nDAC. Warts and all.