ND5 XS Vs NDX vs NDAC

MDS posted:

GraemeH posted:

To my mind the ndac really needs (at least) an xps2 to put it in the top flight of naim sources.

G

 

...I'd also say that an nDAC powered by an XP5XS gives about 80% of the performance improvement of an XPS2 but for half the price.  

Mike 

20% performance gain at the upper level for 50%+ price is good value.

G

GraemeH posted:

MDS posted:

GraemeH posted:

To my mind the ndac really needs (at least) an xps2 to put it in the top flight of naim sources.

G

 

...I'd also say that an nDAC powered by an XP5XS gives about 80% of the performance improvement of an XPS2 but for half the price.  

Mike 

20% performance gain at the upper level for 50%+ price is good value.

G

That's a fair point, Graeme, diminishing returns being very much the territory that we're operating in.  That said the 555PS on the nDAC, over the XP5 and XPS2, was a paradigm shift. Not sure how those two analogies compare but I know you get my drift.

Mike  

I have recently compared NDX and nDAC extensively at my home setup. I've written about it in many threads so here's just a very short description here. 

NDX has very lively, fun and engaging sound. It really gets to you right from the beginning and there's plenty of the famous Naim magic in the sound. But in my setup, in a long run, the sound got fatiguing and little edgy. I couldn't make this go away so I moved back to Naim DAC, which certainly doesn't have any traits of edginess in its sound. Of course, my setup is voiced with Naim DAC, I've had it for five years now and every other component around it has changed during this time. Naim DAC has more organic, slightly smoother sound. It's not as in your face as NDX, more like few rows back in the audience. Also the soundstage is wider and it digs deeper in the recording. Low bass hits deeper and the overall resolution is better, even though NDX's edginess might first fool you to think that it's the one with more resolution.

I ended up keeping the USB bridge + Naim DAC in the end. I tried to get in the world of streaming with NDX but it's not my time yet. I also tried ND5XS as a "transport" between my PC and Naim DAC but couldn't hear noticeable difference between it and my USB bridge (which is around eight times cheaper than ND5XS) so no streamer for me.

Oh and about PSU upgrades. Bare Naim DAC is extremely good source. I experimented with XP5XS and one aftermarket PSU recently and didn't like what they made to the sound. The most noticeable difference was giant boost to the bass which threw off the balance of my setup. Now this might've worked with some smaller speakers but not the ATC SCM40v2 which I currently use. But once again, I've constructed the setup around a bare Naim DAC so PSU upgrade might make it sound off balance. 

MDS posted:

GraemeH posted:

MDS posted:

GraemeH posted:

To my mind the ndac really needs (at least) an xps2 to put it in the top flight of naim sources.

G

 

...I'd also say that an nDAC powered by an XP5XS gives about 80% of the performance improvement of an XPS2 but for half the price.  

Mike 

20% performance gain at the upper level for 50%+ price is good value.

G

That's a fair point, Graeme, diminishing returns being very much the territory that we're operating in.  That said the 555PS on the nDAC, over the XP5 and XPS2, was a paradigm shift. Not sure how those two analogies compare but I know you get my drift.

Mike  

Sure Mike.

G

GraemeH posted:

20% performance gain at the upper level for 50%+ price is good value.

Graeme, not sure you can really meaningfully say that.. The price difference is actual, but the so called performance difference isn't.. There is no discrete measure here that is 20% different.. at least that  I am aware of. Perhaps a more accurate measure would be your subjective 20% preference gain for 50% price would be better?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

GraemeH posted:

20% performance gain at the upper level for 50%+ price is good value.

Graeme, not sure you can really meaningfully say that.. The price difference is actual, but the so called performance difference isn't.. There is no discrete measure here that is 20% different.. at least that  I am aware of. Perhaps a more accurate measure would be your subjective 20% preference gain for 50% price would be better?

It was really just a generalised response based on Mike's previous comment. No absolutes of course...It's all fairly subjective at the upper reaches.

G

GraemeH posted:

To my mind the ndac really needs (at least) an xps2 to put it in the top flight of naim sources.

G

Is this still true after the Dec. 2015 firmware upgrade? I know that the ndac is quite sensitive to the quality of its electrical S/PDIF feed (thus, it's a pity that we do not have any systematic comparison of modern USB to S/PDIF converters) and there have been a few contributions in this forum highlighting the importance of the connection betweeen ndac and amplifier. I had a short demo of the impacts of an SL connector (against a standard connector) and of an XPS2 (agains a bare ndac) on a ndac-based system but I had the impression I would need more time to fully appreciate the differences. 

I'd still say 'yes'. I've had a ndac/555PS which I changed for a Hugo some time back.

When the new firmware was released it was enough to lure me back to the ndac...but I still felt the need for an XPS2 for it to be viable as a Hugo replacement.

G

GraemeH posted:

I'd still say 'yes'. I've had a ndac/555PS which I changed for a Hugo some time back.

When the new firmware was released it was enough to lure me back to the ndac...but I still felt the need for an XPS2 for it to be viable as a Hugo replacement.

G

Thanks! Best, nbpf

Graeme,

I am curious - how would you compare an up to date nDAC/XPS2 with a Hugo?

I have not managed to audition one yet and a Hugo vs nDAC/XPS2 is a much cheaper option.

Thanks,

David

SpecCled Trout posted:

Graeme,

I am curious - how would you compare an up to date nDAC/XPS2 with a Hugo?

I have not managed to audition one yet and a Hugo vs nDAC/XPS2 is a much cheaper option.

Thanks,

David

Hi David

Firstly some context, both my Ndac & XPS2 were sourced S/H at a good price, so the excess over a Hugo was in the hundereds rather than thousands.

In that context I felt that the very slight 'thinness' I perceived in the Hugo upper midrange is bettered by the Ndac/XPS2. The latter also having a bigger presentation to my ears.

The Hugo is very accomplished but the above, plus the desire for a matching system at not too much more expense, pulled me back to Ndac with XPS2.

Graeme

David, although it was NDAC/555PS compared with the Hugo a couple of years back I wrote quite an extensive  description of the differences using to me well known and favourite music..   https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...48#36342540955634848

Simon

"I think the source material has a huge impact."

This is such a big factor with digital, files and CDs. I have many 16/44 flac files which sound so much better than 24/192 flacs - it's not even close. A friend recorded some music from his vinyl setup and at first I thought they were high res rips. But when he told me they were just 16/44 I was absolutely flabbergasted.

To me, the XPS2 brought a maturity to the DAC. Without it, the sound was very forward and strident. Almost fatiguing at times but very exciting.

I apologize if I missed this but David are you certain your DAC has the latest firmware? That was a big, big improvement in sq for the DAC.

Arun

Arun Mehan posted:

"I think the source material has a huge impact."

This is such a big factor with digital, files and CDs. I have many 16/44 flac files which sound so much better than 24/192 flacs - it's not even close. A friend recorded some music from his vinyl setup and at first I thought they were high res rips. But when he told me they were just 16/44 I was absolutely flabbergasted.

To me, the XPS2 brought a maturity to the DAC. Without it, the sound was very forward and strident. Almost fatiguing at times but very exciting.

I apologize if I missed this but David are you certain your DAC has the latest firmware? That was a big, big improvement in sq for the DAC.

Arun

Mastering is often the issue - the later released highe res files are apparently often mastered differently, so not a like for like comparison.

Arun,

thank you for asking, yes the nDAC is the very latest firmware.

IB,

I agree about mastering. I have found some masters/remasters on TIDAL that sound totally different to the original CDs/Rips I have. Even HDCD whatever that really means.

David

Well the MM arrived this evening, sadly I am out all day Tuesday so it will have to wait until Wednesday before playing begins!

One or two of you asked to report how I get on with the nDAC.

I have set it up with MacMini/Audirvana/AudioQuest Toslink/nDAC. Sometimes TIDAL/iPhone/Lightning/USB.

Sources are my own FLAC rips and TIDAL.

System is 52/135s/SL2s.

I have been listening all hours that I have time - I have listened to more music than I have in some years. I have yet to hear a piece of music that does not sound better with this set up. More insight, more rhythm, more detail, more tonal colour, more space, more depth.

I have had no desire to go back to the CDS2. There is no doubt that the CDS2 has a slightly 'sweeter', perhaps more seductive sound, however it gives away so much more to the nDAC in many other areas.

Have spent tens of hours of listening to everything - Jan Garbarek, Pat Metheny, Jaco Pastorius, Keith Jarrett, John Martyn, Nick Drake, early Joni Mitchell, Muse, Royal Blood, Mars Lasar, Ed Sheeran, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, various classical collections, Coldplay and Avishai Cohen 24bit downloads from Qobuz - there is nothing that I would prefer to listen to on the CDS2.

The two big things I notice about the nDAC are firstly how 'tangible' all the sounds are, transients are so crisp and real that each note is there in front me, I can almost touch it. The second thing is that the sound is huge, way beyond the speakers, which simply melt away. The CD2S rarely managed to get beyond the speakers - there would be a near perfect soundstage strung between the speakers in miniature. With the nDAC the speakers simply dissolve away.

Bass is fabulous and deep. With the MM the slight forwardness in the upper reaches I experienced via USB has gone.

The majority of TIDAL rips sound fantastic, often better than my own.

With the MM there is a very slight upper mid-band congestion - based on what I have read this is probably due to the cheap plastic optical cable I have used. I wanted to try the overall set up before investing in a high quality interconnect.

TIDAL by the iPhone and lightning cable is astonishingly good - so the potential is certainly there.

Overall I am enjoying so much more insight into the music as there is so much more perspective, tonally, spatially and dynamically.

Great to hear! Also you have two major upgradepossibilities, the first cheaper than the second; 1. Get a Yellowtech PUC2 lite for USB spdf conversion from your Mac. Its about 380 € and supposed to be the greatest. It will be a huge upgrade and two ad an XPS.

BTW, can you not use your xps from the cds2? 

Fred

Thanks Fred - I should have said I am using it with an XPS2.

As the CDS2 was XPS powered to use the nDAC without it would not be 'like for like'.

Without the XPS2 it is still very good, the XPS adds more focus, refinement and perspective.

I hear the 555PS is a massive step forward but I daren't audition that!!!!

SpecCled Trout posted:

I hear the 555PS is a massive step forward but I daren't audition that!!!!

Oh, it is.  So just enjoy your nDAC/XPS...........for now, at least  

I have now spent a couple of weeks using the nDAC with XPS-2 being fed by a Mac Mini with Audirvana.

Not once in the time that I have had it up and running have I had any desire to go back to my CDS2. I just want to listen to more and more music. So I regard my first foray into streaming as a success.

Having got this far, and read an awful lot in these forums over the past few weeks, I have two more options to add into the mix.

I have ordered a Gustard to connect the MM to the nDAC to see if it is an improvement over the optical link (recommended by Naim, but not by Audirvana).

I have also acquired (it is in the post) a Chord Hugo. I want to see what all the noise is about (excuse the terrible pun). I was speaking to a Naim and Chord dealer and although he could not demonstrate it to me that day, he was unequivocal and unhesitant that Chord were way ahead of Naim in terms of DAC sound and technology.

My current set up is already excellent, how much better can it get?

Great to hear!
Looking forward to hear how you get a long With the Gustard and the Hugo!

Regards

Fred

One of the problems  of the NDAC that I have found that  it only supports DSD64 via digital coax (if hires DSD playback is important to you), USB input is fine.

Peter Dinh posted:

One of the problems  of the NDAC that I have found that  it only supports DSD64 via digital coax (if hires DSD playback is important to you), USB input is fine.

There is no other formally recognized DSD rate you can get via SPDIF coax. ( and of course DSD is structured in DoP SPDIF frames ). 

Simon

Simon, I do not have a Hugo, but according to its spec, it supports both DSD64 and DSD128 via Coax, is that right?