NDX (bare) vs. Squeezebox Touch (EDO enhancement)/Rega DAC

I have a friend of mine that just did an upgrade to a NDX + Hi-Line on his Supernait 2 + Hicap DR and Focal 1038Be, replacing a combo of SBT (with upgrade PSU)  and Rega DAC (wired up with BIS Audio cables). He finds the improvement to be not subtle at all, he wrote me countless pages about it. And IMO, he's now having an absolutely perfect system synergy.

When I heard his kit with the SBT/Rega DAC, it came clear to me that the weakest point was his source components. I brought my own Naim DAC + Hi-Line at his place to prove it to him. It's not that the combo he had was not good, but it wasn't at the same performance level of the other components of his system.

I don't know what's the rest of your system, but try the NDX with a Hi-Line interconnect instead of the standard Lavender bundled with it. It's IMO an essential item to get the best out of a Naim source component, I'm so convinced of this that I got mine when I was at CD5i/Nait 2 level.

Bye.

I have used the SBT (upgraded PSU) with the SN on board DAC for some time and have felt it was a very worthy performer, very close to my CD5X.

If I live to be 100 I will never understand why Logitech bought that product and killed it so soon afterwards - some outstanding VFM.

I also feel the NDX is nowhere near as good as it should be but the SBT is better than it has any right to be! The SBT was the best VFM when it was released. There's a lot of technology packed into that little box. Adding an external DAC and/or upgraded PSU helps.

Unfortunately the NDS is very expensive but so much closer in sound to the higher-end CD players it seems to be replacing. I will never sell my CDS3 but I do prefer the convenience of streaming and for now, the SBT into DAC/XPS2 serves the purpose very well.

Yes you can add hiline and powerline but ultimately do you want to spend that much money to get a certain level of improvement? Is it worth it to YOU??? I will probably get a NDS at some point but until then, I'm quite happy with my SBT.

Arun

Should clarify (in case it's not obvious), the SBT/Rega is the existing source. 

Good responses and input that I am beginning to see is the norm around here  

I'm not against going NDX/XPS and hi-line as a path. But also not into just throwing that amount of money at a source in the "hope" it will be the improvement I would expect. 

More listening is needed and maybe throw nDAC into the mix to see if the sum of all the parts brings it together. 

And as has been suggested on another thread, might be worth putting the cash into a decent rack.  An NDX plus rack could be squeezed right now if I hold back on a HICAP. 

(Currently shoe-shopping with Mrs JF Lux...believe me when I say hi-if decisions pale into insignificance compared to what pair of shoes to get....!)

Ideally you should listen to just the NDX for a few days. Then go back to the SBT and see if it's better of worse. If you flick between the two you'll just get confused. Focus on which one is more engaging and enjoyable rather than which has better bass, imaging or other Hifi nonsense. 

HH - exactly the plan  for this weekend !  

I use a SBT into an Audiolab M-Dac though my Supernait 2 and think it a great solution, I must hold my hands up and say I've not heard an NDX in my system/room but have no desire to spend another £2k  when I'm very happy with what I have. I don't fell let down by it at any time. 

I run both my NDX and SBT via coax through a Naim DAC/555.  I find both equally pleasing for local AIFF and Spotify.  The FM tuner on the NDX is the best I have owned, and I listen to FM most of the day.  System Automation provided by a the NDX is wonderful.  I keep the SBT because iPeng Party is the best way I have found to allow guests to build a queue without trashing it.  I had a Sonos Connect, too, but removed it because it sounded inferior to the SBT and NDX, and gave no benefit I wanted, though I like the UI.  I also run a Mac Mini with Audirvana+ into the DAC via Toslink mostly as a backup source -- sound quality is excellent, but the UI is not as family-friendly as the Naim-end-to-end system.

I wonder if I would like the ND5XS as well as the NDX.  I did not audition the 5, because the NDX deal was too good to pass up, and there were no used 5s available at the time.

Nick

In my opinion the weak link in your SBT/Rega DAC combo is the Rega. I've been looking for reasons to upgrade my SBT for quite a while now and just can't do it. The SBT is hard to beat and with a few tweaks its excellent LMS software can be made to work with 24-192, DSD and Roon. I think that fed into the same DAC you would need to spend close to 10-15 its price on something like an Aurender before hearing a significant improvement.

Judging by the hundreds of imitators saturating the market I think the SBT was ahead of its time and Logitech either failed to see the potential or just thought the audiophile market wasn't big enough. Hell their Harmony remotes almost saw the same fate until someone woke up.

Iconoclast posted:

Judging by the hundreds of imitators saturating the market I think the SBT was ahead of its time

And I think therein lies the problem  It is clearly not the best, but the VFM and the performance it does give makes an upgrade a tough decision. If ever the law of diminishing returns played a factor with a device the SBT has to be near (or at) the top. 

I've no experience with the SBT but I used to go from laptop into a Rega DAC. It was decent, but was significantly bettered by switching to a Naim DAC-V1. So in terms of VFM upgrades, it may be worth experimenting more with DAC's if you're happy with the current set up. 

I find the Rega DAC to be very influenced by the source. The best it sounded was being fed from Digital Out of the Naim Unitiqute. This bested the SBT w/EDO Coax, and SBT EDO w/ Musical Fidelity Link 24/96 USB to Coax.

I use the SBT with the nDAC. And I have a spare SBT if the current one bites the dust.

With appropriate tweaks, the SBT is an awesome network audio source for me. Using the iPad as the control, it beats the naim app hands down in terms of features. I can see the album art, look up wiki for the current artists, find lyrics online quickly. Most importantly, in Asia, it support Chinese Japanese Korean text, something the naim devices don't do well. Its one of the reason I don't have an NDX but have the nDac.

Its looking (i.e. sounding) like the NDX is going back to be swapped for an nDAC and will give that a try. After spending time listening to the NDX I put the SBT/Rega back on and not much of a difference. Certainly not 4 times the price (SBT/Rega cost vs NDX) difference and even taking the "law of diminishing returns" into account the difference is far too small.

If the nDAC shows a difference to the Rega then I think that gives me a better investment return and more flexibility in the future with digital sources. Including second-hand NDX or ND5XS at some point in the future if I change my mind. And starting to toy with the idea of a CD transport again...Mrs JF Lux is just gonna love me, especially as one of the arguments for changing the old hi-fi was "see all those black boxes from Cyrus...the pre and two monoblocs...and all those extra power supplies? Well we could go to two boxes..."  Yer...right...

Anyway, Still another couple of days with the NDX so I'm not fully giving up on it just yet.

I notice you mentioned above that you might get a decent rack. I think it's fair to say that Naim gear is more susceptible than most to setup, including support on a proper rack. So it could be that you're not giving the NDX a fair hearing if it's just shoved in a temporary position. Just a thought....

ChrisSU posted:

I notice you mentioned above that you might get a decent rack. I think it's fair to say that Naim gear is more susceptible than most to setup, including support on a proper rack. So it could be that you're not giving the NDX a fair hearing if it's just shoved in a temporary position. Just a thought....

Why is Naim gear more susceptible to setup?

Iconoclast posted:

ChrisSU posted:

I notice you mentioned above that you might get a decent rack. I think it's fair to say that Naim gear is more susceptible than most to setup, including support on a proper rack. So it could be that you're not giving the NDX a fair hearing if it's just shoved in a temporary position. Just a thought....

Why is Naim gear more susceptible to setup?

I have no idea why this might be. I do know that my (Naim) gear responded very positively to being put on a (non-Naim) quality rack. Naim are also the only HiFi brand I'm aware of who make their own range of racks, and the numerous posts on this forum would seem to suggest there is something good going on here.

Of course, setup is about more than just racks. Take cables, for example; rather than bore you by pretending I understand the science behind them, I would recommend a Google search for "db pings a cable" to catch this forum's finest debate on the subject. 

So the verdict is...The NDX has gone back at lunchtime. Even at a decent ex-dem discount I don't think it is enough of an SBT-beater (when used as a transport) for the cost. Better sounding ? Definitely! But better sounding by any real margin ? Nope.

So I have the HICAPDR with me for trying. Might as well spend some money...

Interestingly, I also spent some time running the SBT direct into the NDX and using it's DAC. That was also an improvement over the Rega. So the dealer is going to loan me an nDAC for home demo next week. Looks like that could be my path for now (maybe a bit backwards...but seems to be the logical, cost effective step for now).

Going the nDAC route also leaves it open for future streamer/renderer options - if Naim ever brings out a DAC-less source. And I will take a peak at the Simaudio MiND180 (which my Naim dealer also carries) in the future.

(Other issue is that Mrs JF Lux has started to get wise on the potential box count...)

JF Lux posted:

So the verdict is...The NDX has gone back at lunchtime. Even at a decent ex-dem discount I don't think it is enough of an SBT-beater (when used as a transport) for the cost. Better sounding ? Definitely! But better sounding by any real margin ? Nope.

So I have the HICAPDR with me for trying. Might as well spend some money...

Interestingly, I also spent some time running the SBT direct into the NDX and using it's DAC. That was also an improvement over the Rega. So the dealer is going to loan me an nDAC for home demo next week. Looks like that could be my path for now (maybe a bit backwards...but seems to be the logical, cost effective step for now).

Going the nDAC route also leaves it open for future streamer/renderer options - if Naim ever brings out a DAC-less source. And I will take a peak at the Simaudio MiND180 (which my Naim dealer also carries) in the future.

(Other issue is that Mrs JF Lux has started to get wise on the potential box count...)

You might want to explore other options than Naim and Moon. There's a lot to chose from.

ChrisSU posted:

Iconoclast posted:

ChrisSU posted:

I notice you mentioned above that you might get a decent rack. I think it's fair to say that Naim gear is more susceptible than most to setup, including support on a proper rack. So it could be that you're not giving the NDX a fair hearing if it's just shoved in a temporary position. Just a thought....

Why is Naim gear more susceptible to setup?

I have no idea why this might be. I do know that my (Naim) gear responded very positively to being put on a (non-Naim) quality rack. Naim are also the only HiFi brand I'm aware of who make their own range of racks, and the numerous posts on this forum would seem to suggest there is something good going on here.

Of course, setup is about more than just racks. Take cables, for example; rather than bore you by pretending I understand the science behind them, I would recommend a Google search for "db pings a cable" to catch this forum's finest debate on the subject. 

I think most quality hi-fi components would benefit from a quality rack designed specifically for audio as opposed to a wobbly, resonating piece of junk.

I just don't think we should automatically look to blame the accessories when something isn't working in our Naim system when they only account for a small fraction of what makes/breaks the sound.

If anything I would tend to think well designed/built audio gear would be less susceptible to its environment than a cheap metal box that rings like a bell.

Iconoclast posted:

You might want to explore other options than Naim and Moon. There's a lot to chose from.

Agreed. But I'm sort-of trying to keep it simple to some degree and limit choices so I don't end up in analysis-paralysis. Might not end up with the "best of the best" but should hopefully be so damn close it doesn't really matter. There is Lumin and Aurender to think about.

And never underestimate the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) - boxes all the same shape, size, colour and with matching LED's is easier to sell to SWMBO than many different boxes

How about a Sonore microRendu into a DAC V1 (pretty easily found used as well)? Only half a new box, and the rendu hides out of sight. Ordering the rendu soon myself in order to replace a UQ used just for digital out. 

JF Lux posted:

Iconoclast posted:

You might want to explore other options than Naim and Moon. There's a lot to chose from.

Agreed. But I'm sort-of trying to keep it simple to some degree and limit choices so I don't end up in analysis-paralysis. Might not end up with the "best of the best" but should hopefully be so damn close it doesn't really matter. There is Lumin and Aurender to think about.

And never underestimate the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) - boxes all the same shape, size, colour and with matching LED's is easier to sell to SWMBO than many different boxes

I fully understand the WAF dilemma. I keep all my cables and less attractive non-standard boxes out of sight for a very clean minimalist look.

If budget allows I would go for an Aurender paired with a decent DAC (Schiit Gungnir Multibit, Resonessence Veritas...).

The aforementioned Sonore microRendu is worth looking into as it's versatile and inexpensive and can run with LMS software which you're already familiar with. On the other hand it doesn't have a screen like the SBT and I'm not sure how much of an upgrade (sonically) it would be.

JF, I would be very surprised if you do not enjoy the SBT/nDAC combination. It is a real winner for the money - only downside is the lack of new SBTs if anything goes wrong but there are other options out there if the SBT fails.

BN

I can highly recommend the SBT edo into a Chord Mojo into a Supernait2. I think I would have to spend a hell of a lot more of the folding stuff to improve the sound quality.

Hopefully my SBT has a few more years left in it!