Anyone left Naim for Devialet?

Anto68 posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I kind of feel the Devialet is to Linn what Bryston is to Naim.

 

I do not agree, The Devialet products do not compete with anyone, for the simple reason that no one, until now, has the ability to have the Devialet technology.  Linn has not SAM which is proprietary technology to match as in an almost perfect the amp to the speakers. Any updates or upgrades with Devialet is free and you can do it from your own home simply by downloading the new release (this means you always have a new amp ... nothing mk1 mk2 etc etc).

I have listened Devialet Le 120 but it is not for me, I do not like the sound to much sharp and clear, the live music is not like that, for me lacks soul, it is too analytical (IMHO). However Devialet is an amazing product

 

That's not really my point. The technology is a means to an end and from a selling point they are competing with slimline single box solutions like Linn Exakt - however that arrangement works under the hood.

They absolutely will be appealing to the same type of consumer too a fair degree. 

But sure, a prospective buyer more inclined to the Naim sound might go the Devialet route over Linn. But then again, plenty of us have been torn between Naim and Linn also despite sounding very different. 

PhilP posted:

 

 

I can make my Devialet sound too sharp or too smooth just by switching source.  In my experience the amps are  amazingly transparent and just faithfully reflect the signal being sent to them. If you like smooth try an Aurender streamer as a source 

+1 The Devialets are among the most transparent devices I've heard. If it sounds like hi fi or lacks soul its because the source sounded like hi fi or lacked soul. With a well recorded source they are scary good. And this is from someone who also owns and loves his Naim. While I enjoy the tweaking and boxes approach of our hobby, I think the future is with Devialet type devices and I think our friends at Naim are moving in that direction as well.

So if I understand correctly, the devialet 'amps' are actually combined DAC, preamp and power amp (integrated amp with DAC)? Has anyone tried using them with a separate DAC, whether a Naim, or other like Hugo? IF so how do they campare, and if not, why not?

And has anyone tried sources such as the Naim streamers, Mac Mini/Audirvana and Melco with Devialet? if so any assessment of SQ?

In addition to this, they are A/D converters for their analog inputs as well. I had a short demo with a Leema CD-Player connected to the analog and digital S/PDIF inputs of a Devialet. The difference was more about character and not quality per se. To put in other words, the Leema sounded more Leema-like via the analog inputs.

The Devialets, A/D and D/A-conversion included, are clearly able to show the differences between very good phono stages.

I really appreciate what they bring to the market, but bought a SN2 and NDAC 

Clay Bingham posted:

 I think the future is with Devialet type devices and I think our friends at Naim are moving in that direction as well.

Sad state of affairs if that is true, they will alienate their core customers, and chance the future success of the brand on fickle buyers.

Naim knows what sells and what is proven, I don't see them moving in the direction of Devialet. That's what sets them apart from the crowd and why they have such a loyal following!

badlands posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

 I think the future is with Devialet type devices and I think our friends at Naim are moving in that direction as well.

Sad state of affairs if that is true, they will alienate their core customers, and chance the future success of the brand on fickle buyers.

Naim knows what sells and what is proven, I don't see them moving in the direction of Devialet. That's what sets them apart from the crowd and why they have such a loyal following!

That's a rather restricted and strange view:

if you mean black boxes, why on earth so? They aren't attractive - not ugly, but rather plain, and in racks of multiple boxes rather industrial looking, like the amps in a professional PA system. naim has changed style before, and theres's no earthlynreason why they shouldn't go flat and slim.

if you mean digital amplification, why on earth not, assuming Naim decides it would give an improvement, whether in sound quality, or enable as good quality for lower cost.

Would you reject Statement if you found out it was actually digital? OR if it was slim and silver?

The only question really is whether Naim will remain committed to emphasising the parts of the signal that bring out PRaT, which it seems is one thing many Naim customers are hooked on - butbif they decide ther's a market for accuracy rather than PRaT, even that shouldn't be of concern if added as an additional range.

If Naim was heading in that direction, they never would have introduced the Statement pieces!

I think Naim needs to evolve or die. Devialet shows how slick a good HiFi stystem can be, whether or not you like the presentation. If Naim can develop quality systems which still major on PR&T (their major selling point thus far, including Mu-so), and switch to SMPSs and class-D amlpifiers then I'm all for it. The important thing is the Naim presentation, not how it does the job. The n-Vi showed that Naim could make a product with both SMPS and class-T technology (which is class-D with knobs on) that still had the Naim presentation. Yes, it had some issues with faulty parts and questionable software, but in the end the n-Vi was pretty stable and the hardware worked. So why not use those lessons learned for new, more efficient, product? As a dealer, I'd much rather cart around a 5kg item than a 15kg item on a regular basis, which would rather save my back, and transport costs will also come down, hopefully making savings for the customer.

Incidentally, does anyone know what speaker cable is recommended for use with a Devialet? I've seen no comment about this.

Regards,
Frank.

Frank

Don't laugh. I'm using NACA 5 right now and it sounds very nice to my ears. Not harsh, dynamic, and with very solid tight bass. I've thought about trying Transparent or Nordost but if it's not broke.....

PhilP posted:

I would suggest that you take a good look at the Unofficial Devialet Chat forum. There are quite a few people on there who have switched from Naim to Devialet. I don't recall any of them mentioning a loss of prat...

 

Oh my, spoken like a true Devialet owner!

I wouldn't mention it either if I spent that kind of money. You know, purchase justification, and all that kind of self doubt stuff that has you question such purchases.

Frank Abela posted:

I think Naim needs to evolve or die.

Regards,
Frank.

Could that also mean moving production East? That surly would pass on savings to the consumer. Nah, Naim is doing just fine, thank you!

Maybe there's no loss of PRaT... Maybe some people prefer a more accurate sound...

As for purchase justification none of that from Naim owners here (but plenty of talk of burning in!)

Accurate smaccurate, who's to say what's accurate?

There is only one definite, Naim electronics sound like nothing else, either you get it or you don't, I guess you don't!

badlands posted:

Frank Abela posted:

I think Naim needs to evolve or die.

Regards,
Frank.

Could that also mean moving production East? That surly would pass on savings to the consumer. Nah, Naim is doing just fine, thank you!

 

Where is it the Mu-so is made?

Badlands

Well honestly, the Naim sound is a many splendid thing. There is quite a variance in the Naim sound going from the classic chrome and olive series through the later Classic series, to the Uniti and DR series. There is a consistant design philosophy but the sound does vary. I get the Naim sound and have more pieces and speakers than you can shake a stick at but I own and admire Devialet as well. I guess I'm just more ecumenical than you.

Cheers

Clay Bingham posted:

 I guess I'm just more ecumenical than you.

 

Quite the orator. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Frank Abela posted:

I think Naim needs to evolve or die.

Regards,
Frank.

Could that also mean moving production East? That surly would pass on savings to the consumer. Nah, Naim is doing just fine, thank you!

 

Where is it the Mu-so is made?

Exactly, remember, be careful what you wish for Mr. dealer!

Auditioned the Devialet D200 yesterday. I would say it sounded very nice with deep low bass, wide open sound stage. There is PRAT but maybe Naim is a smidgen better in the PRAT department but not as transparent, clean and wide as the D200.

Remote control is like a jewel. 

Build quality is top notch but I wonder if the chrome surface can last without blemish over time.

BUT, the unit comes without a streamer is a problem. You will need to have a laptop bear you to play music.

And, there is a reason for the price drop. Devialet is brewing something up soon..

Linear power supplies and analog preamp control is not the past and SMPS with digital control are not the future. These are just different approaches. Linn have been doing SMPS for ages (since at least the mid 90s when they brought out the Brilliant) and digital preamp volume control and switching for longer. Devialet takes this all much further but again, just a different approach.

Small single box expesive hi-fi units have been around since the 70s and things like the D200 or Linn Exakt box are just extensions of that approach. It didn't fundamentally kill of seperates 40 years ago and it won't now. What is clear is that the market for those low box count units has grown and I guess the increase in city apartment dwelling coupled with lower home ownership rates play a large role in the globally.

If you want one box, Naim do the Uniti range but genrally using the technologies that Naim beleive in.

As for "Naim needs to evolve or die", well, as stated, their core approach is very different but not stuck in the past. Naim have not just brought out product updates but introduced new categories to the range when the time was right (Uniti, X72, Muso etc.). Not sure how much evolving you think is required. We shouldn't mistake our own change in preference for a product as being the shape of things to come. Deciding that a bunch of boxes and the Naim way of doing things isn't for you and moving to Devialet/Linn/Brand X is fine. As consumers we all do this (I moved the other way from Linn). But we shouldn't expect Naim to change because we personally changed. No brand can be all things to all people. To do so would be like having a top of line Ducati bike and then realising you don't want a motobike anymore to get from A to B but a sports car instead. And then coming to the conclusion that the reason you had to sell the Ducati and buy a Lotus was because Ducati refused to evolve.

Possible streamers surely include Naim products, taking either the analog or digital outputs (depending on whether Naim or Dev's internal DAC is better), and renderers that with Hugo have been shown to beat Naims include Mac Mini/Audirvana and Melco, both of which are neat having internal storage so a NAS is not essential.

badlands posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

badlands posted:

Frank Abela posted:

I think Naim needs to evolve or die.

Regards,
Frank.

Could that also mean moving production East? That surly would pass on savings to the consumer. Nah, Naim is doing just fine, thank you!

 

Where is it the Mu-so is made?

Exactly, remember, be careful what you wish for Mr. dealer!

Naim's traditional products made in Salisbury filled the factory to the gunnels. Without a major restructure or moving the factory to a larger premises, Naim would find it very difficult to increase their turnover and develop the products for the future which require technological advances in software as well as hardware. Building equipment by hand is all very well for a smaller concern, but there is an inherent high build cost associated with that. Building the Mu-so in the far East makes complete sense given that the volume market requires a low build cost. If the Mu-so had been built in the UK, even using similar techniques and processes to those of the far East, the unit would have been twice the price, simply because you're paying the people in your wonderful UK volume building factory 3 times more than what you're paying the far Eastern people to do the same job. At twice the price you'd sell 5 times less in that market - at best!

At the same time, these large toroidals put extra pressure on the electricity suppliers. I don't understand the ins and outs of it, but for some reason they can cause a discernible swing in load for the supply. I believe Naim has already had to defend its use of these supplies in court. Furthermore, they use significantly more material and are substantially less efficient than an SMPS. In this day and age it would seem sensible to consider the alternatives if they can be made to work the way you want them to work. Other manufacturers have developed worthy alternatives, but I would accept that they tend to lack the heft that you get from a linear supply. A colleague was telling me how bass players complain that the sound of many modern SMPS/class-D amplifiers have the same problem, but most will go with those solutions because the difference is a 2kg amp to cart around as against a 15kg amp. In many cases, when you see a large stack on stage, those stacks are empty boxes there for marketing purposes only, and the bass player will be using something much smaller in the back of the stage!

Finally, had you ever listened to an n-Vi? It had weight and heft, yet was an SMPS powered class-T solution. In direct comparison with the more expensive Meridian G95 of the time (100wpc SMPS/class-D, as opposed to the n-Vi's 50wpc) the n-Vi still sounded 'like a Naim', had the heft and actually seemed just as powerful and loud as the Meridian. Obviously it wasn't a patch on Naim's own linear supplied offerings, but considering it was an all-in-one surround sound system, it was a cracking job. If it hadn't been blighted by unfortunate parts reliability and some software gotchas, it would have been even more successful than it was, because nothing touched it for sound quality in the AV space at the time.

What I wish for is a Naim Audio bringing quality sound to the masses and even more quality sound to the music lovers and audiophiles of this world. The technologies used in doing so are less important to me than the results, provided they are as good for the planet as possible and hurt nobody directly. Too much to ask?

Regards,
Frank.

Nice post Frank, and I do agree,the end result is more important than the actually technology used.

The NVI sounds like a Naim, that's good enough for me 

feeling_zen posted:

 Deciding that a bunch of boxes and the Naim way of doing things isn't for you and moving to Devialet/Linn/Brand X is fine. As consumers we all do this (I moved the other way from Linn). But we shouldn't expect Naim to change because we personally changed. No brand can be all things to all people. To do so would be like having a top of line Ducati bike and then realising you don't want a motobike anymore to get from A to B but a sports car instead. And then coming to the conclusion that the reason you had to sell the Ducati and buy a Lotus was because Ducati refused to evolve.

Comparison of motorbike and sports car like that isn't relevant, being more like comparing Hifi with a TV, but rather Ducati and another sports bike, say a Honda Fireblade (latter a specific model because the brand covers such a range), or Harley, or BMW, etc:  all very different though still bikes, and they do what they do differently, and each have their own avid fans. But which is better depends on what criteria are important: speed? Comfort? Stylishness (by whose measure)? Even if you simply want the fastest, on what sort of road/track? Using road fuel or specialist race fuel? And how good is the rider?

analogmusic posted:

 I do agree,the end result is more important than the actually technology used.

 

Exactly what I said before, except I also suggested the same goes for appearance (at least to those most concerned about the music)