Anyone left Naim for Devialet?

The thing about appearance is that, come what may, it does matter to those who have to look at it in the lounge. It's all very well having it locked behind closed doors or in a dedicated HiFi room, but how many racks do you know of that have doors and are any good, and how many of you have dedicated HiFi rooms? No, the items must be good looking in order to share space with the rest of the living space. Naim's triptych form has served the company very well indeed; discreet but classy, it represents typical British understated quality like a Savile Row suit. The days of hacked together parts-bin enclosures are long gone.

To feeling_zen, my message about 'evolve or die' is simply that Naim, and any successful business, has to evolve continuously, shaping its products to evolve with the times and remain current. It's a tribute to Naim's farsightedness that the Classic range has remained so competitive with only one major development - the DR - in 16 years while also expanding the rest of Naim's range with Uniti, Mu-so and streamers. And yet I know for a fact that during that time even the Classic range was under scrutiny with new components being examined and evaluated for possible improvements. Unless the business evolves to cope with change, it will be caught out by an unexpected turn of events and by then the inertia and momentum of the company would be too great for it to make significant change without severe pain.

Frank.

Frank Abela posted:

The thing about appearance is that, come what may, it does matter to those who have to look at it in the lounge. It's all very well having it locked behind closed doors or in a dedicated HiFi room, but how many racks do you know of that have doors and are any good, and how many of you have dedicated HiFi rooms? No, the items must be good looking in order to share space with the rest of the living space. Naim's triptych form has served the company very well indeed; discreet but classy, it represents typical British understated quality like a Savile Row suit. The days of hacked together parts-bin enclosures are long gone.

To feeling_zen, my message about 'evolve or die' is simply that Naim, and any successful business, has to evolve continuously, shaping its products to evolve with the times and remain current. It's a tribute to Naim's farsightedness that the Classic range has remained so competitive with only one major development - the DR - in 16 years while also expanding the rest of Naim's range with Uniti, Mu-so and streamers. And yet I know for a fact that during that time even the Classic range was under scrutiny with new components being examined and evaluated for possible improvements. Unless the business evolves to cope with change, it will be caught out by an unexpected turn of events and by then the inertia and momentum of the company would be too great for it to make significant change without severe pain.

Frank.

Interesting exchanges.

On the remark about Naim shall "evolve or die" (seems rather strong?), I have mentioned about this earlier in another thread. The market is constantly changing as lifestyles, expectations or requirements of the people will evolve with time. It's the life process of the younger generation replacing the older generation, which is inevitable. On the digital scene, I think Naim is up to date with the current trend or technology with streaming solutions. But when one compares the Devialet and Naim, I suppose it is more to form than sound quality.

I am not sure what sort of evolution you are expecting from Naim, but if you are thinking along the lines of making Naim boxes slimmer just like the Devialet or reducing box count, personally I don't think it would be a wise idea as throughout Naim's history it is all about conventional pre/power boxes with separate power supply boxes for both amplification and sources with the Classic range. This is what makes Naim different and unique. I can understand the simplicity and convenience of a one-box that does it all with the Devialet, but to suggest Naim to follow or emulate Devialet's philosophy is just wrong. Having said that, I agree that any business that wants to be successful will need to adapt and evolve continuously in accordance with market changes. But do so diligently and at one's pace.

I have not listened to the Devialet so I cannot comment whether the Devialet sounds close to the Naim, or the Devialet sounds noticeably different from the Naim. However, I do hope there is an appreciable difference in sound quality between the Devialet and Naim. If there is a difference, I would think one is not necessarily *better* than the other. They just sound different, that's all.

With the introduction of the DR power supplies and DR power amps not too long ago, I believe the form and factor (or box count) of Naim amps will remain for a while, if not for few more generations. It is what that sets Naim apart from the rest, to stand out from the crowd, in my view. And Naim needs to maintain this form to remain niche. To completely revamp the whole thing would require a lot of R&D and time, decades me thinks.

Ryder, interesting perspective. Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting Naim should copy Devialet. I was suggesting that Devialet have done some joined up thinking which has resulted in a slick user interface and a cool physical presence. Very...Gallic, in fact!

There are lessons to be learned there, and the market adoption and growth of Devialet from zero to hero in a few short years in the current climate are evidence of a company - or product - done right.

As for the evolve or die comment, no I don't think it strong - fact is, every company has to evolve with the times in order to meet the needs of its customers. If it doesn't then the company loses custom, market share and eventually cash flow kills it. Naim's regular product updates and new product introduction shows that the company is beavering away and rethinking the way it does things. The Mu-sos show seriously out of the box thinking. I dread to think how the internal discussions must have gone on how a Chinese made Naim item might be received.

Regards, Frank.

Plus you just know there going to be exact fakes of Muso available in China for dirt cheap. You cannot manufacture there without accepting that reality as a forgone conclusion and factor in how much it will or won't hurt your bottom line.

For some companies, having your product ripped off in China is a badge of honor since it means that your product is coveted enough for people to make the effort.

I have nothing against manufacturing in China but it has to be the right product. The production lines are optimised to do certain things very will which suits the assembly of certain items very well. Others, not so much. How Naim seperate this out is fairly standard. Even Japanese manufacturers draw a line in their product range. Below the line it can be made in China. Above the line it needs to made domestically where a different level of quality control or process is required. Naim do source components from all over the world. Even an NDS has a fair bit of stuff in it that started life in the far east before arriving in Salisbury.

In the case of the Classic range, you would probably have problems producing the units anywhere other than Naim - even other places in the UK. The issue there is not just skill and technique but that it would be hard to have things built by peple that cared enough about the matching and obsessive tweaking of components.

I use Devialet 400 in one system with Tannoy Kensington GR speakers, and a Naim NDX/252/Supercap/250 in another system with ProAc k6 speakers.

The Devialet offers convenience and great sound in an attractive package but the Naims IMO have the edge in terms of pure sonic quality and musical enjoyment - of course, with the attendant hassles of DIN Cables and multiple boxes, power cords etc that are not present with the Devialet.

Both are hugely enjoyable.

Frank Abela posted:

Ryder, interesting perspective. Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting Naim should copy Devialet. I was suggesting that Devialet have done some joined up thinking which has resulted in a slick user interface and a cool physical presence. Very...Gallic, in fact!

There are lessons to be learned there, and the market adoption and growth of Devialet from zero to hero in a few short years in the current climate are evidence of a company - or product - done right.

As for the evolve or die comment, no I don't think it strong - fact is, every company has to evolve with the times in order to meet the needs of its customers. If it doesn't then the company loses custom, market share and eventually cash flow kills it. Naim's regular product updates and new product introduction shows that the company is beavering away and rethinking the way it does things. The Mu-sos show seriously out of the box thinking. I dread to think how the internal discussions must have gone on how a Chinese made Naim item might be received.

Regards, Frank.

Thanks for the clarification Frank.

Singslinger posted:

I use Devialet 400 in one system with Tannoy Kensington GR speakers, and a Naim NDX/252/Supercap/250 in another system with ProAc k6 speakers.

The Devialet offers convenience and great sound in an attractive package but the Naims IMO have the edge in terms of pure sonic quality and musical enjoyment - of course, with the attendant hassles of DIN Cables and multiple boxes, power cords etc that are not present with the Devialet.

Both are hugely enjoyable.

That is good to hear. I presume you have used the Devialet 400 and Naim 252/250 with both Tannoy Kensington GR and Proac K6 so that the comparison is a fair one.

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels. But soundstage, transparency and an amazing bass control using SAM made me decide to bring in the Devialet LE 250. It closes the gap considerably.

Don't care much for rhythm/melody (I play my Stones or Dylan on cheaper gear). I want clarity, space, textures and love to be amongst the musicians, and the Dev is very strong and at a much simpler package.

YanC posted:

 

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels. But soundstage, transparency and an amazing bass control using SAM made me decide to bring in the Devialet LE 250. It closes the gap considerably.

Don't care much for rhythm/melody (I play my Stones or Dylan on cheaper gear). I want clarity, space, textures and love to be amongst the musicians, and the Dev is very strong and at a much simpler package.

Your naim kit might do even better if it was supported as it was intended to be!

Speaker cable might also be an issue - out of interest, what is the flat stuff you are using. I thought that this was an absolute no-no with NAPs? Certainly, some I tried years back made my (olive) 250 get vey hot very quickly and did not sound good.

oscarskeeper posted:

YanC posted:

 

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels. But soundstage, transparency and an amazing bass control using SAM made me decide to bring in the Devialet LE 250. It closes the gap considerably.

Don't care much for rhythm/melody (I play my Stones or Dylan on cheaper gear). I want clarity, space, textures and love to be amongst the musicians, and the Dev is very strong and at a much simpler package.

Your naim kit might do even better if it was supported as it was intended to be!

Speaker cable might also be an issue - out of interest, what is the flat stuff you are using. I thought that this was an absolute no-no with NAPs? Certainly, some I tried years back made my (olive) 250 get vey hot very quickly and did not sound good.

Looks like standard reference Nordost cables so should be nap friendly.  Test bench looks perfect for a bench test.

The rear views make a refreshing difference to more common arrangements... But I'm intrigued: does the carpet turned up at the corner make a significant difference to the sound?

The test bench was put together for the sake of the assessment, for about a week. all devices ON.

The "flat stuff" is Nordost Frey which is the best mod I've done to my system (Hiline from the Weiss to the 252 was the second). I was with NACA5 from 25 yrs. But this is secondary. I consider racks and cables as fine tuning. Achieving the desired sound signature out of your electronics is the key.

The 252/250/Weiss is close to perfect (for me). 

The Dev 200 is not up to it, and should probably be considered against more affordable Naim amps, but the LE 250 is close, and better in some aspects, especially the almost sculptured presentation of sound.

YanC posted:

 

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels. But soundstage, transparency and an amazing bass control using SAM made me decide to bring in the Devialet LE 250. It closes the gap considerably.

Don't care much for rhythm/melody (I play my Stones or Dylan on cheaper gear). I want clarity, space, textures and love to be amongst the musicians, and the Dev is very strong and at a much simpler package.

YanC the cluster F@@k picture frame really needs some proper pictures in them - other than the printed copies inside showing as they were sold.

pictures are all mine. i'm, into color ;-)

here's some more

YanC posted:

 

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels. But soundstage, transparency and an amazing bass control using SAM made me decide to bring in the Devialet LE 250. It closes the gap considerably.

Don't care much for rhythm/melody (I play my Stones or Dylan on cheaper gear). I want clarity, space, textures and love to be amongst the musicians, and the Dev is very strong and at a much simpler package.

This is the first time I am seeing this stacking arrangement. You are the man!

By the way, the speaker cable you have there reminds me of the Nordost SPM Reference that I have owned several years ago. It certainly looks quite similar to the Frey with the purplish hue. Is that a NAP 250 DR? If it's a DR, I have read about Naim stating that the amp can be used with virtually ANY speaker cable.

I always thought that the Nordost signature was a bit too quick and hard for Naim's forward presentation.

Chag -

Not with Sonus Faber speakers as most of their speakers have a warm signature. Some sounded too warm and thick with rolled off highs. No speaker cable (or amplifiers) would make these speakers sound hard and forward, or quick.

YanC posted:

 

I had the Devialet 200 head to head v 252/250+Weiss DAC for a week. 

It is hard to make a clear distinction between the two. Pros & cons both ways. The Naim combo felt better, especially late night listening at low levels.

 

This is one reason I do not will never buy a Devialet. For me, good performance at low volume are very important. I read the Devialet LE 120 review in What HI FI magazine ; 

"Loses some sonic magic at low volumes"

"Drop the volume right down and the story changes a bit. The impressive clarity remains for the most part, but the sound loses a surprising amount of dynamic sparkle and rhythmic cohesion. 

Most amplifiers suffer from losses in these areas when the volume level drops, but the effect here is far more obvious.

We’d even go as far as to say if you regularly listen to music at very low volumes this is probably not the amplifier for you. "

Tested a Dev 200 head to head with my Naim system for a few days, loved the simplicity of the Devialet, it sounded really good but not as engaging as my Naim rack, somehow I would get tired fast with the Devialet and it left something to be desired, I played the same tracks and there was definitely more musicality in the Naim.... To be frank the lack of this kind of user-base and forum at Devialet kind of weighed in

Plus, I guess it depends on what you like, for me the joy of upgrading a cable here, power chord here, power supply there is part of the fun and part of seeing the rack grow and evolve, I like that part of it although that tends to be a money-draining path... If you prefer not to get into that stuff then for Sure Devialet is a fantastic choice...

Now how do I get around convincing my wife that the NAP300 is really worth the extra dough???

thijazi posted:

Tested a Dev 200 head to head with my Naim system for a few days, loved the simplicity of the Devialet, it sounded really good but not as engaging as my Naim rack 

I think you need to put things into perspective here.

Your amp (according to your profile), including the DAC comes up to about 15k pounds versus the Devialet 200 which is less than 5k. And that's sans racks and cables.

I would be pretty concerned if the Dev 200 would top it.

As I said on my earlier post. If you try the Dev LE250 or (possibly the LE400), which are close to the 10k mark, you may be surprised.

As for tweaking, yes I agree, it's nice to, but when you put all the boxes you need 4 to 6 power plugs (a substantial investment), versus 1 for the Dev. 

ryder. posted:

By the way, the speaker cable you have there reminds me of the Nordost SPM Reference that I have owned several years ago. It certainly looks quite similar to the Frey with the purplish hue. Is that a NAP 250 DR? If it's a DR, I have read about Naim stating that the amp can be used with virtually ANY speaker cable.

Speaking of Nordost speaker cable, this is the reply I received directly from Naim about the compatibility with Naim amps!

This question was sent May 8th of 2016.

So, it would seem that the 250DR CANNOT be used with virtually ANY cable.

Where did you read that?

Hi

  Thank you for your e mail, Naim Amplifiers do not have inductors in the output and we therefore do not recommend cables with high capacitance, which I believe the Nordost is? attached is the specification for Naim A5 and you should try to use speaker cable with similar specification

  Regards

    
  

Call: +44 (0) 1722 426604

I believe a Naim rep or engineer was quoted in the Ear's review of the 250.dr as saying that the restriction on cables is for the older NAPs and even the 250.2 is tolerant of almost any cable. Stress on 'almost'.

I agree this contradicts what their current documentation and responses from support say. 

YanC,

Boxes facing the wall is a novel and completely logical approach for best access to cable dressing. Something that never occurred to me. Even better if you can get the remote signal to work bouncing off the wall. However, I am going to have to spank you on the stacking of the black boxes. OTOH - Devialet obviates the stacking need.

I accept that Nordost cables open things up and improve resolution and texture. However, I find them completely boring and disengaging. For me, every time you 'upgrade' from one Nordost to the next I experience a loss of musicality and an increase is falseness. The Nordost approach is quite counter to the Naim presentation, and so does not constitute a happy marriage in my view. If all you want is artefact, then you might as well buy a Marantz or other far Eastern brand, since this is very much what that part of the world relishes - it's all about timbre, texture and tone.

By contrast, Naim's approach is all about performance, artistic interpretation, nuance and meaning. It's not about the notes, but the message in them. "It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee

As for the setup, there is so much wrong there I'm amazed the Naim held up so well. It's a bit like the Head to Head drag race of Tesla Model X versus Alfa 4c. The Tesla only just beat the 4c in the quarter mile drag... and then you were shown that the Tesla was pulling another 4c along on a hitched up trailer...(search for model X versus Bentley Bentayga, it's at the end of the piece).

Frank.

Chalshus posted:

I did two years ago and have not looked back. It gives me all I need in musical satisfaction, in a neat package. 

I was a bit fed up over the cable-tidyness, equipementsupportnevrotics and if you only spend  £5000 on a new PSU, everthing will get much better. Here in one of the most expensive countries, that is a lot of money. 

I had a CDS2 with XPS, NAC52 with Supercap, Thrichord Dino with psu, Naca5 and SBLs on a Mana rack. I sold the kit 6 months after I got the Devialet.  And yes, the majority og the componets were recapped.

Now my system is a Rega RP6 with AT33PTG2 pu, Rega Jupiter into D200 with Harbeth M30.1 speakers. Equipement rack is USM Haller. 

 

 

Lol! And you're still hanging out on the naim forum?  There really is no going back once you've joined the Naim cult.