XS2 System advice

Neither of the above.

Source first!

in my experience a Hicap on the XS makes a huge difference and adresses some of the aspects you describe.

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Morning all,

Just looking for some advice. I'm new to the Naim world (and this fairly decent level of audio in general) and wondered how I can get the best out of my setup.

My system:

iMac (2014) - Naim stock power cable (it filled the sound out versus iMac cable)

Chord Co Silver Plus USB cable (definitely better than the cheapo one that came with - which was tinny by comparison)

Chord 2Qute (Teddy Pardo 12/2 PSU - has removed the mains hum in the amplifier that the Qute stock SMPS caused when switched on. It also stopped the bass booming much less. More defined bass which opens the floor to the higher freqs.)

Chord Co Chameleon VEE 3 0.5 (no idea what this is doing but sounded better than tham Audio Quest Red River so i bought it)

Naim XS2 - Naim stock power cable

Chord Co Rumour 2 cables (2m each side)(Currently being blammed for things not being quite 'right". Scapegoat element!)

Proac Studio 118 (They change everytime you do try a different cable, lead, application, position etc etc. I guess they are just playing what they are fed. Which is good I guess! I chose theae over Dynaudio Excite X14 due to the Dyn's being useless at low volumes. But the Dyn's really do light up at a mid to high volume level. Less subtle though. More direct sound). 

 

I'm in a new house with a smallish (3.5x4.5m) listening room with a chimney breast dead centre long side and a bay window. Room needs some work due to relfections. 

 

I'd like more punch, attack and more definition of guitars & instruments (acoustic mainly). The definition piece is my biggest issue. Things sound a little round at times and lean / thin at other times. A bit papery. The overall sound is lovely but these things eat at me. And of course I want it to be more open/spacey. 

Everything seems to make a difference. Cables. PSU's. Jumpers. Plates. Positioning. Hardrives. Etc. Find it difficult how some say these things don't impact sound. They absolutely so.

I have a pair of B&W MM-1 desktop actives and while they have nothing on this setup, they do define transients, electronic sounds and instruments in a way I enjoy. Though they are a little manic at the same time.

So which part of the system is best scrutinised for improvement?

I am currently ripping all my music from CD again to WAV / lossless.

 I have considered:

Speaker cable upgrades?

Powerlines?

Hicap or Flatcap(s)?

Naim DACs?

GIK panels. 

Even a different amp! 

 Thanks a lot

Adam 

 

Moderated Post:  I've made a small edit - please refer to forum rules, thanks.

Hi Adam,

I have pretty much the same setup as you with the exception of the source. Before spending on expensive cables, power supplies, etc (they won't change the existing sound signature) try borrowing a pair of B&W CM5 S2 or a Yamaha integrated amp. AS1100 or AS2100 would be in more/less the same price range as the XS2. Your DAC might also be playing a part here. While very quick and detailed Chord DACs can sound a bit thin at times depending on the recording. In other words they add very little meat to the bones.

Thatsnotmynaim,

The definition you seek is, perhaps, being blurred and blunted by micro-rattle in the mechanical interfaces of your equipment supports and possibly speaker/floor interface.   You listed your cables in detail but did not describe your rack or other supports.  It is very common for audiophiles to pay full attention to the electrical side of their system, while disregarding the mechanical aspects.  Cable "dressing" also falls in this category.

Charlie

The first thing I'd do is to try 3.5m lengths of Naim Naca5 or Tellurium Q Black. The Rumour is quite weedy sounding and either of the others will give more drive and solidity. You could also try a used flatcap XS on the Nait. As I know nothing of the Chord DACs it's hard to say whether the more expensive Hugo would be better, though it seems highly likely. 

Hi Adam

I am new to Naim so I can only tell you my experience. First thing is, your speaker cable is too short, Naim state that your speaker cable should be at least 3.5m long, I have used the same cable in the past, it worked well with my Naim system. 

I don't have any idea about your system but I found B & W speakers didn't do it for me, have you auditioned Neat Iota or Iota Alpha, I have Neat speakers and I love them, but mine are proto-types and not on general sale. 

As for main leads, like you I have had a lot of problems, I read an article by Malcolm Stuart about MCRU number 27 main leads, (Malcolm is a well known expert on Naim hifi ) you will find this cable on line at Cable's R Us, if you phone ask for Dave's advice. You can DIY the cable and save money but remember to conect the drain wire to the wall plug end only, I found a mega improvement with this cable. 

Regards Dave 

Thanks Dave. Neats might be worth a look. I keep hearing this.

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for the pointers. Much appreciated.

P. I am looking to home demo the high cap.

Iconoclast. Do you think a Naim DAC would change things up? When you guys all say source you refer to DAC right? Or the bit before it? (Mac).

Charlie P i am using Atacama Moseco 6 stands with filled Atabites and using spikes that came with. My rack is Atacama Eris 3 shelf. Pardo on bottom. Xs on middle. Mac on top. What is cable dressing? Would Naim Fraim really improve things?

NAC A5 is on my home demo list. But we'll see what difference it makes. 

I'm guessing a dedicated CD player would be better than my Mac / audirvana. Any good hardisk out there? 

Cheers Adam

Start thinking about a streamer - ND5XS - doesn't have to be new. Much more flexible than  CD player.

I hadn't noticed which speaker wires you were using. I agree with Hungry Halibut that NACA5 would be a good place to start (even you're contemplating ditching the XS2).

As for the Naim DAC - my opinion is that it's a very good DAC but I honestly believe that for the price you could do better. Keep in mind that a lot of people around here are using Chord DACs.

The reason I suggested the CM5 S2s is because they will provide a different flavor than your Proacs. Even though they are destined to the general public the Proacs are designed primarily as studio monitors and as such are rather flat. The B&Ws have a more bouncy sound and slightly better instrument separation albeit more colored in the mid-bass/bass. You might find the comparison interesting. There may be other speaker alternatives such as Neat (popular with Naimists) but as they're not available for demo in my area I couldn't say. I did hear the Motives once in an audio show and found the sound to be a bit boomy but that could have been caused by the room and/or ancillaries.

If you decide to go for a streamer I would check out Aurender or for a lot less money Sonore microRendu.

Fountain of information here. Thanks for these. The Proacs do sound very neutral / plain. Sometimes very lovely but definitely lack bounce. Experience of B&W hifi speakera are usually that they sound thick in the mid but I will give them a go none the less.

I had some 602.5s years and a Rotel Ra-02 which bounces nicely but again thick, muddy mids. Though it was a budget system. Sold it after uni. 

I have never known Proacs to lack bounce or be flat, maybe my interpretation of the word bounce means something different to me, but to be honest, Proacs lack very little of anything.

Check out this review of your speakers, it's funny how different people hear things. The last thing I would look at replacing is your speakers. They are described as the total opposite of how a forum member(Iconoclast) describes their sound.

ProAc Studio 118 review | What Hi-Fi?

It's true. We probably all need to align our definitions of the words we use before we discuss these things.

I think I'll start with some NAC A5 as most commonly I hear the Runour to be a shortcoming. Well nobody has sprung to it's defence yet. Neither here or elsewhere.

Then if that's not making much difference I will try:

B&W CM5 / Neats SX3

Naim DAC / ND5 XS (but most say Chord is a safe bet)

HiCap on the XS just for giggles / curiosity.

Yes. The review says "lively". So I am wondering what part of my system isn't. Maybe I need more run in time. Fairly new. Couple of months and played mainly at lower volumes so far. 

I think your sequence is wrong.

I would suggest the following > source > amp > speaker > speaker cables.

I'll try to apply some method to my madness then. Appreciate the note. Cheers

badlands posted:

Check out this review of your speakers, it's funny how different people hear things. The last thing I would look at replacing is your speakers. They are described as the total opposite of how a forum member(Iconoclast) describes their sound.

ProAc Studio 118 review | What Hi-Fi?

Maybe it isn't the speakers.

A few things to consider. First off I own the 115s. However there shouldn't be that much of a difference with the 118s. I fully understand what the OP is describing. Then there's also a question of what amp was used by the reviewer. Was it the Nait XS 2 ? Synergy plays a big part in the end result. Finally - I've owned these speakers and this amp since they were launched. I've had plenty of time to break them in and try them with different gear, cables, positioning, music, etc. At the rate WHF does reviews I doubt they have the time or the resources. 

The XS 2 isn't the gutsiest amp out there and the Proacs aren't the bounciest puppies out there either.

The XS 2's major strength is that it works reasonably well with most kinds of recordings while still retaining a bit of what Naim is known for. It's not super dynamic, it's not super detailed and it doesn't have a killer bass grip.

What the Proacs do do well is not exaggerate any one thing, are room friendly(enough) and true(enough) to what's being fed them. 

That's why I suggested he try some CM5 S2s with the XS 2 or a Yamaha AS2100 with the Proacs. That little exercise would allow him get a feel for what he owns and determine if his current setup is suited to his tastes.

...as opposed to blindly buying expensive power supplies, streamers, power cables, etc hoping they'll transform his system into a completely different animal.

What is a gutsy amp and a gutsy pair of speakers out of interest?

2k amp. 2k speakers. Tops. 

Fast, punchy, open, good definition and involving? Nothing pedestrian, dull or muddy. 

I will try the Yamaha vs B&W swaps to see. I expect there to be a significant change having heard those brands before in different situations. 

Might just go back to the old Rotel RA-02 and B&W 602s! It wasn't refined but it was a good listen. Apart from rock which was blurred as hell in the mid. 

Audio is painful but addictive. 

I use HiCap DR with my XS-2, best upgrade so far, highly recommended

Thatsnotmynaim, my current system is quite similar to yours and after reading what you want from your music, I would try a different amp, possibly the exposure 3010s2 intergrated. I think you after the more "hi fi" spacious sound but you like a gutsy amp , and the exposure does have some positive naim traits

I use an XS 2, and disagree about lack of 'bounce' in the amp - I use one with Spendor speakers that are usually described as 'pipe and slippers', but with the XS 2 in charge they have plenty of 'bounce' - so it's synergy and other things NOT the amp itself.

Firstly, as that's an iMac not a Mac Mini, then I believe it has a fan.  If so it'll be vibrating your Hi-Fi rack and that WILL blur the sound form your audio components.  Move the computer off the rack.

Second, the iMac has a plastic case; as a result of this and LOADS of high frequency digital signals inside it'll be spewing out RFI.  Move the computer off the rack and away from your sensitive analogue equipment.

Third, the naked XS 2 doesn't have the best resolution available for 2K, nor does it have the best bass weight or 'grip'.  However with a HiCap things really do change, both those aspects improve dramatically.  Do try a HiCap or a Flatcap, it may well give you what you seek - the difference is quite remarkable for 'just adding a power supply'.

Fourth, your room may be playing a part in this.  In my room there's a position for the speakers that gives a 40dB cut from about 100Hz to 220Hz; this makes the system very bass light overall, but still boomy from the 42Hz and 79Hz bass resonances in the room - it's the worst of all worlds.  To sort out the bass 'impact' you may just need to move the speakers!

Fifth, your speaker stands are quite inadequate for the ProAcs and may well be responsible for a degree of muddiness and lack of attack in the sound.

Sixth, you mention that the PSU is on the bottom shelf of the rack, but don't say where the DAC is.  Try to keep PSUs away from audio components, don't put the PSU and DAC on the same shelf.

ThatsNotMyNaim,

I'd concur with the tact suggested by CharieP and Huge. Likely nothing wrong with your system per se, just the set up. Poor racking, poor cable dressing, and room acoustics blur the sound output. No use chasing upgrades until those matters are addressed. It's simply cart before the horse otherwise. 

In regard to speakers stands, I've found that sharper spikes on my floorstanders increased the coherence of the sound. Isolate your gear and you'll get the punch, attack and definition you're seeking.  

Exposure goes on the test list. After I've sorted the source. 

Huge, some really helpful stuff in there. Thanks. DAC is on the top shelf right next to the Mac!! I am also storing my music files on a Western Digital USB portable using a short USB 3 cable between that was free from a phone shop. Plan was to transfer files across to Mac HD. I may look into Mac Mini. Though I changed the Mac cable for a Naim stock one and this made the sound fuller / less tinny. Not sure if I can do this with the Mini because the power termination is different. Though the benefits of a fanless mac, not driving a monitor and using a SSD drive may outweigh.

Good advice here.

Any suggestions stands-wise?

Still not sure what cable dressing is?

Cheers.

USB3 is very bad from an RFI perspective: most USB3 cables use an inadequately shielded connector system and emit quite high levels of broadband energy between 2.3GHz and 2.7GHz (and some other peaks outside this range as well).

Having the DAC (and it's analogue cables) next to the computer is just asking for RFI and vibration problems, even anything with an HDD should be kept off the HiFi rack.

Speaker stands (in my experience, but I haven't hear either with ProAc 118s):
Partington Super Dreadnought: Generally well balanced and quite dynamic sounding.
Custom Design CS104 Signature.  More dynamic and lively than the Partington, better bass, same midrange clarity, slightly rougher at HF.  These are my current choice.
But there are many other designs that may work better with the ProAcs - some speakers are very temperamental when it comes to stands, and I don't know the ProAcs; but the Atacama Moseco 6 just aren't in the right league at all.

The Mac Mini has a totally different PSU arrangement so may not benefit from a different power cable in the same way - it's completely unpredictable, just because one does doesn't mean all will.

Cable Dressing is routing cable so they don't touch things like other cables and furniture to avoid picking up vibrations, and don't run parallel to speaker cables or mains cables to avoid electrical interference.

Sort out your physical arrangements before buying more kit - if you have the physical arrangement wrong (particularly around speaker position and stuff on the HiFi rack), then new kit will just suffer from the same problems!