FM switch-off

I wasn't in the beta team then. I think sometimes the process of updating firmware can lead to odd and unexpected problems, for example I remember one guy lost most of his DAB stations and only resetting the streamer brought them back. I suppose it's hard to test every possible combination of circumstances, as Apple demonstrate ably with every new IOS release!

And to Lindsay's question, don't worry about it. I guarantee DAB is not for you!

best

David

The Strat (Fender) posted:

What's DAB?

It's what they apply over wattle. Basically it's shit.

Willy.

That's a pretty good description Willy, I thought DAB was awful through my system, much prefered Internet radio and FM over that. I spent a while mulling over the switch off and then thought life was too short and bought a Nat05XS - it helps that I rarely listen to BBC stations though

David Hendon posted:

I guarantee DAB is not for you!

best

David

DAB has a lot in common with it's fishy namesake, flat and bland. Unfortunately, whilst the fish is now rarely seen, presumably due to low demand, the radio format looks like it's going to be pushed down our throats weather we like it or not.

Thanks for the info about the firmware update - I'll give it a go soon (ish). I also have a NAT05XS so it's not urgent, though I'm getting increasing amounts of hiss later in the day on 91.7 FM with a standard FM roof aerial.

BTW I quite like some DAB stations when I've had use for them - 192 kb+. Of course DAB Plus would be better, but sadly we people would be the sort of pressure group which doesn't seem to exist for it here. (ducks)

Salmon Dave  .................    "hiss later in the day on 91.7 FM with a standard FM roof aerial".      The infamous Radio-3 hiss,  what do you mean by "standard FM aerial"  ??? 

Hi Mike, sorry for the delay.. On the road at present. Yes the Warren Heath transmitter is the Ipswich low power transmitter. Currently hosting a few very low power Ipswich FM commercial stations I believe. The Woodbridge transmitter looks to be an infill transmitter for the Deben estuary shadow. Currently low power vertical polarisation DVB and mobile phones resides on that water tower. Not much coverage beyond the Woodbridge/Melton  lowlying area.. Still looks like no local DAB for Suffolk, good job we have FM still in Suffolk 

David Hendon posted:

 

The main reason the BBC would like to turn off FM radio is that it is expensive to simulcast in both FM and DAB.

Not quite true David. There is quite a lot of very concerted opposition to any FM switch-off/switch over within the BBC.

There's a common misconception that the "DAB agenda" is being driven by the BBC, which is not the case. It is being driven by the DCMS, which hopes to: a) generate some income from the frequencies (quite how, I'm not sure); and b) further reduce the scope and influence of the BBC. Poor old Auntie, cowed by a succession of governments wedded to neloiberal dogma, just has to go along with it.

Not quite true either Kevin,  in addition to DCMS (Gov) the whole radio industry - BBC, Commercial & Distribution - pays for running, maintaining & developing the network, & that ultimately means you & me

Well, I've been merrily listening to my NDS streaming BBC R3 over past few hours but have just given up. Dropout after dropout has just made a live broadcast unlistenable. Not helped by this terrible weather in the S East. So I've just fired up my trusty NAT01. What a difference. No dropouts and crystal clear dynamics. If this is compression, bring it on!! Don't get me wrong, I love my NDS but for radio, the NAT01 leaves it for dead.

Kevin-W posted:

David Hendon posted:

 

The main reason the BBC would like to turn off FM radio is that it is expensive to simulcast in both FM and DAB.

Not quite true David. There is quite a lot of very concerted opposition to any FM switch-off/switch over within the BBC.

There's a common misconception that the "DAB agenda" is being driven by the BBC, which is not the case. It is being driven by the DCMS, which hopes to: a) generate some income from the frequencies (quite how, I'm not sure); and b) further reduce the scope and influence of the BBC. Poor old Auntie, cowed by a succession of governments wedded to neloiberal dogma, just has to go along with it.

Kevin I didn't say that everyone at the BBC supports DAB and I am sure you are right that many BBC folk don't but nevertheless what I said is correct. Corporately the BBC do not want to be paying for simulcasting national radio channels in FM and DAB and so corporately they want to switch FM off.

i also think you are wrong when you say that DCMS want to reduce the scope and influence of the BBC although I agree that probably that is part of what Whittingdale in his present role of Secretary of State wants personally. But anyway whether the BBC broadcast national radio in FM or not is irrelevant to their scope and influence.

I'm afraid I also disagree that DCMS is driven by a desire to make money by selling the spectrum. They know as well as the rest of us that the band 2 spectrum has little monetary value as it isn't useful for mobile phone networks.

What I think few at DCMS understand is how poor the sound quality of the current DAB offering is or why that matters.

best

David

The question has to be asked... Why do Naim not offer a DAB / FM tuner  (NAT05XS with DAB on board) ?  

Having a tuner as a discrete source component on my rack is (almost) essential... I can sit down, relax, select 'Tuner' on my preamp and I'm away.   One button pressed, no ipad to find, no apps to negotiate, no artists to choose... just pre-programmed content to relax to  (OK, I change the pre-set from time to time).

And for the folks who would encourage me to use the i-radio facility on my streamer... it just isn't as simple as selecting input #2 on my pre... true 'click & go'.

Roger

PS - has this been mentioned before?

I suspect the reason Naim don't make one is simply because they don't think there would be a big enough market to justify the investment. Including DAB in the SDR module of a streamer is, on the other hand, almost free to them, just having involved them in some firmware writing.

if you do use iradio in a Naim streamer, you can still select it by a single button press on the remote. It plays the channel you used last. If you have the FM/DAB module the preamp will go to the radio system you last used. Of course you have to also have selected the streamer  I'm not sure I understand the problem you have with iradio?

Best

David

I think  next week will be  the first time I appreciate DAB.  Wimbledon on Radio 5 DAB will be better than AM in the car. 

Ravenswood10 posted:

Well, I've been merrily listening to my NDS streaming BBC R3 over past few hours but have just given up. Dropout after dropout has just made a live broadcast unlistenable. Not helped by this terrible weather in the S East. So I've just fired up my trusty NAT01. What a difference. No dropouts and crystal clear dynamics. If this is compression, bring it on!! Don't get me wrong, I love my NDS but for radio, the NAT01 leaves it for dead.

Indeed, dynamic compression is used on a station by station basis and programme by programme basis on FM just as with elsewhere. If think you'll find the dynamic compression on Radio 3 is minimal if at all. The FM distribution in the UK is non linear PCM NICAM. This is different of course to the psychoacoustic lossy compression as used by encoders used for web radio, although the latest AAC type encoders in the various transport streams aren't too bad, but to my ears still ultimately sound a little synthetic for immersive listening.

I've mentioned this before on here, but I often find that CDs played on BBC Radio 3 FM and received through my NAT01 tuner can sound better than the same CD ripped to NS01 and streamed through my NDS. I wonder if anyone here finds likewise when listening to radio broadcasts through a DAB tuner? Or even iRadio through a Naim Audio streamer?

I suspect that sound quality will be irrelevant when the BBC considers FM switch over.

Clive B posted:

I've mentioned this before on here, but I often find that CDs played on BBC Radio 3 FM and received through my NAT01 tuner can sound better than the same CD ripped to NS01 and streamed through my NDS. I wonder if anyone here finds likewise when listening to radio broadcasts through a DAB tuner? Or even iRadio through a Naim Audio streamer?

I suspect that sound quality will be irrelevant when the BBC considers FM switch over.

I'm not sure its better Clive, maybe a touch softer/warmer & missing the top end CD "bite".   I suspect it might be that the top end is curtained by the FM 19kHz pilot tone filter.  It varies a lot depending on tuner make plus variables,  at best the filter comes in at 15kHz, many are lower. The Leak Troughline is a classic example of what is supposed to be one of the best for SQ,  but in reality it has no output above 10kHz.      I would love to test an 01.

I tend to agree SQ seems to be irrelevant in the consideration of FM switch off.  But reading the working group publications shows that as not so;  but for sure its not as highly regarded as many of us hifi users would wish.  The working group publication shows "In an independent survey of current DAB users, 85% rated the sound as clearer. ......  none of the hiss and crackle of analogue radio because with digital radio the signal is either very good or not available" .......  "many radio listeners cannot tell the difference between FM and DAB in terms of quality. There is, however, a small minority of "audiophile" consumers who do not consider that the sound quality available from the current DAB technology is satisfactory".   Truth be told we are a small voice in a large crowd,  most of which are either going deaf or don't give a damn.   But don't blame Auntie Beeb,  its the HM.Gov (bless'em) Ofcom & the radio industry of which the BBC is just one player.

Then "We're doomed" as Private Fraser would say.

And I'm not talking about the EU referendum result.

I'm sure Pt. Frazer sums it up for many, however I'm resigned to the fact that FM will not be around as a national broadcast service forever.  But unlike Pt.Frazer I am an optimist, & pending something better that is bound to come in the future,  I'm expecting my post FM future broadcast listening to be iRadio for home listening & DAB in the car.  iRadio is not perfect but is better than DAB & in some respects its better than some FM,  plus it carries so many excellent & diverse stations.  DAB hopefully will change to DAB+ one day (maybe not so soon),  but in car listening to me is not (cannot be) serious listening,  for longer journeys I take WAV files on a USB as an alternative to daytime radio.   But even with FM my only serious listening is my own music streamed from my NAS.

David Hendon posted:

I suspect the reason Naim don't make one is simply because they don't think there would be a big enough market to justify the investment. Including DAB in the SDR module of a streamer is, on the other hand, almost free to them, just having involved them in some firmware writing.

if you do use iradio in a Naim streamer, you can still select it by a single button press on the remote. It plays the channel you used last. If you have the FM/DAB module the preamp will go to the radio system you last used. Of course you have to also have selected the streamer  I'm not sure I understand the problem you have with iradio?

Best

David

Don't misunderstand me, Dave, I don't have a problem with i-radio...  but there are some days when I get home after a long, tiring one (...work, SWMBO shopping expedition, grandkids challenge... you know the sort of thing) when all I want to do is find a glass, fill it, press 2 on my preamp as I walk past, sitdown, chill and listen to whatever is being played to me.

And there are other days (the majority of course) when I'm looking to find a particular kind of music to match my mood and to listen 'seriously' for a while... these are the times when the i-pad comes out, the streamer gets scanned, playlists get maintained and the original justification for buying Naim is confirmed time and again.

Or to put it another way... some days I'm just much lazier than others  

Roger

Mike, the trouble is with web radio.. Is you need a good internet connection.. and until more capable bandwidths are available in less urban parts many are reliant for FM for serious listening. 

Interestingly in my routes through Europe I have heard  very little DAB service in France, but Switzerland and often northern Italy support DAB and DAB+. The DAB+ on my car receiver does exhibit increased hissing noise as the signal deteriorates .. where as DAB just cuts off (the squelching mud of earlier receivers seems removed on my current car receiver). The complete cut off is disconcerting, as you can miss things, especially speech.. I would prefer the DAB+ approach of reduced SQ in poor signal areas as you can still follow speech... And DAB+ often sounds as good as higher bandwidth web radio . It would appear consumers here in Switzerland and Italy appreciate the higher quality of DAB+ over DAB.. and often it appears stations provide both services as well as FM.

Indeed Simon,  but I did say I am expecting my post FM home listening to be web radio & mobile to be DAB.   Your point about the need for better countrywide broadband is a "given" for the UK as a whole but I do expect that will be here before FM does get switched off.

I'm also very familiar with the differences with DAB & DAB+ as I travel quite a bit.  For the life of me I do not understand why the UK (Digital Radio Action group) is not embracing it.  My guess is they have spent good money on outdated technology & now are reluctant to spend more on what has turned out to be the slowest fast track ever.   I do expect it to start to gain momentum now other countries & some UK services have moved to it.

All that said,  given the politics of these last few days & the news thats brewing this morning,  the potential for a complete change in many different directions is on the cards,  so I'm not holding my breath on anything,  yer never know FM might see me out.  

I agree Mike.. Did you say there is some DAB+ in the UK?

Yes Simon,   3 came along with the new Sound Digital multiplex launched in Feb 2016.   Plus aprx 14 trails ongoing in different areas - incl BBC.