NDX vs Linn DS?

According to KRM's post earlier on this thread:

" Naim say that the SPDIF output on the Unitiserve "is not audiophile quality", although I don't know what this means in technical terms."

So maybe that's why an NDX might improve things. Why you would then need the UnitiServe and not  a (much cheaper) NAS is  another question.

Having played with all these toys at home, these are my thoughts:

1.  Serves will have iRadio in a month or so.

2.  I could not make out a difference in SQ between the Serve and the HDX using my nDAC and a DC1.  Maybe I've been flying too long, but the "better" PS and digital out were not apparent for my enjoyment of the music.

3.  There are 4 USB inputs in the back of the Serve; I put my Linn downloads here.

4.  The front panel screens on the HDX and NDX are not great for full-time use.  Bookmark the IP address of the Serve on your favourite browser and you have a full screen duplicate right there on your desktop and laptop.  Of course the N-Serve app is fantastic too.

5.  I tried the Qute for our other living room; the performance of my XS and Sonos is far more impressive.  For me it is the performance of the amps which adds to my enjoyment.

6.  Another poster has reported the fine performance of the Serve with a 555PS on the nDAC.  Well it's pretty good without it but I will try this combination out next week.

7.  I agree with KRM's points about the ADS earlier in this thread.  The Chorus app is way better than N-Stream but I could not get konfig to work on my mac network.  Hence the ADS fell by the wayside.

8.  I felt the NDX needed the nDAC too, but perhaps I am accustomed to this unit's character.

The only way for sure to know what is best for you (which is all that matters) is to get hold of these not so little boxes and try them at home.  The current fascination with the NDX aroused my attention but I can't say it actually bowled me over.

Cheers,

Al.

I thought the NDX was better IMHO, but it should be for the money!  I also tried the MDS but that was only ever so slightly better than the Sonos and certainly not worth the jump.  I have been using a MacBook with Pure Music and that was good, but I could not get gapless playback to work so some Decemberists, PRR, Rush and Pink Floyd albums were spoiled.

The killer for me though is N-Stream; I use my daughter's first generation iPad and my iPhone 4 and the app is slow to refresh.  Others have reported that it is faster with iPad2 but there are still a lack of features which others have documented elsewhere.  I did not consider this issue to be a big deal until I used the unit myself.

Al.

Al - how do you feel the N-Serve app compares to the Sonos app on iPad?

"The only way for sure to know what is best for you (which is all that matters) is to get hold of these not so little boxes and try them at home."

Very true indeed!

One of the problems is that people have different perceptions of and opinions about what constitutes a significant difference in SQ. We seem to get hung up about this sonic difference or that sonic difference, when at the end of the day all the above mentioned Naim products will produce great sounding music, especially through the nDAC, which levels things quite a bit as we know by now. In that context your comments about the Serve/nDAC vs. NDX/nDAC are very interesting and only prove that point. Others may beg to differ but it just goes to show that at this level the differences in SQ are getting smaller or higher amplification is required to really show the differences that might exist. Ultimately it comes down to personal taste, what product suits our needs best and whether we feel it is worth spending the extra money.

Regarding the Sonos, my personal experience so far indicates that it can deliver great sounding music through a good DAC. Plus, it is such a neat product to use, great app, etc. All in all exceptional VFM. I will take delivery of my nDAC unit at the end of this week and will post my findings some time after on how the Sonos ZP90/DC1(RCA-RCA)/nDAC/ 555PS stacks up against my CDX2.2/DC1(BNC-BNC)/nDAC/555PS both into a 282/FCXS/200. It will be an interesting comparison. Whether or not the NDX sounds better is not really the question for me, the question I am asking myself is whether I actually need or want the NDX. I still enjoy putting on a physical CD, looking at and reading through the booklet and lyrics for example. It makes for a different musical experience than controlling it all from your iPad. If the Sonos gets close to the CDX2.2, I will seriously ask myself the question whether it's worth spending €4.2K on a streamer. I'd like to think not but time will tell...

In my experience N-Serve has always been instantaneous whereas Sonos sometimes took a little time to have a think about it on my iPhone.  I have heard it is faster using the Sonos controller but I have never tried it.

My only wish now is that Spotify access could be made to work with the Serves - it is a great feather in the Sono's cap.  To explore new music on Spotify I plug my MacBook optically to the nDAC.  Maybe I just shouldn't be so lazy.......

Al.

aysil - am I right in assuming that in your statement here you refer to the SQ delivered by their individual SPDIF outs and when fed into the nDAC, correct? Or do you also mean to suggest that there are pronounced sonic differences between the two when serving files via Ethernet and into the NDX?

Thanks

tp

Cheers!

Have you tried MOG? Meant to be better than Spotify.... came across it yesterday...

It is confusing, and that I think is the trouble now with Naim's approach - they've got some great products out there, but the potential audience is in a fog. So much simpler when Naim made the best amps, CD players, tuners etc!

I posted a few months ago about my experience with the NDX. I think it's a great standalone unit, able to out-music the CDX/CDX2 (and I had 3 of those over 12 years), on all its inputs, from internet radio to USB stick. My gut feel is that (as has been said by others) it was designed to sound different to the DAC and IMHO is not inferior. Unlike the CDX2, it doesn't seem to 'need' an additional PSU to produce a very large scale sound. Great product, in danger of being ignored for the reasons mentioned in the thread.

On the subject of 'redundant', the unit that confuses me is the HDX-SSD - what's that? a hard disk player without a hard disk?!

The posts about the theory of digits are all very interesting but I usually just ask my dealer nicely and have a long listen.

Hi Ken -

I think there are a couple of different ways to answer your question.  There is a technical answer that uses the Naim product specs to distinguish between a "hard disk player" and a "network player", and there is also a qualitative answer that expresses opinions and perceptions about how the different solutions play music -- their ease-of-use and sound quality.   Anyway, I'll take a shot at both, and hopefully clarify more than confuse.  Also, I apologize in advance if any parts of this reply sound remedial in tone.  I plan to take this opportunity to organize my own thoughts on the subject as well as to try and answer your question.

The NDX is a network player.  In the world of DLNA/UPnP, it is called a "renderer".   The more generic term you'll hear is "streamer" (i.e., there are "streamers" running protocols other than UPnP, like Sonos and SB Touch).  A "renderer" plays music only if 1) there is a UPnP "server" on your network that can provide access to a library of files (e.g., a NAS, or a PC running Asset software), and 2) there is a "control point" for browsing the library and playing songs (e.g., N-Stream, PlugPlayer, etc.).   So to play music, you need all three funtions -- server, renderer and control point -- and a lot of the time those three functions are performed by three different pieces of hardware (e.g., a NAS, an NDX, and an iPad/iPod). 

It gets more complicated because sometimes component can play multiple roles.  For example, your UnitiServe can be a UPnP server for the renderers on your network (e.g., a PS3, UnitiQute, etc.).  In addition, and at the same time, the UnitiServe can also be a "hard disk player" -- it can access network shares, and deliver music files (using N-Serve) via S/PDIF to a dac (in your case, the Naim DAC).  The UnitiServe is similar in that regard to a PC running media center software like J River MC -- both can provide UPnP services to the network as well as deliver music files via S/PDIF to a dac.

One of the nice things about hard disk players is that they also provide the interface to rip CD's and manage your library of music.  Here again, either the UnitiServe or a PC with JRMC can do the job.

For someone like me, who had already ripped a large number of CD's using a laptop (running EAC for ripping, and MediaMonkey for library management, tagging, and so on), the UnitiServe came to market a bit late, and I was not willing to re-rip my entire collection.  In addition, for the last couple of years, I've been running a PC server with an RME 9632 sound card as my "hard disk player".   This PC server mounted a share from my NAS, and ran JRMC to select and play music.  I also used a Macbook Air running Remote Desktop Connection to control the PC server from the comfort of my listening chair.

After reading about positive experiences of others using the NDX, I decided to try out this UPnP model as an alternative to my hard disk player model, and have found it to be a wonderful upgrade in both sound quality and usability (although N-Stream could use some additional features!).   It has gotten the PC out of my listening room (and even though it was silent, I was surprised to hear a big reduction in the amount of Naim transformer hum by doing so).  It has made the iPad (instead of a laptop) my point of control.   To my ears (and to Mrs. Hook's in a blind test), there was big improvement in sound quality by simply replacing the PC server with the NDX as a "S/PDIF source" for the DAC/555PS.   But as I said in a previous post, had I tried the NDX/555PS first (or, more accurately, had I not already owned the Naim DAC), I would have stopped right there!   The built-in DAC of the NDX produces beautiful music!   I am, however, hearing an improvement in the amount of detail, and in the articulation of bass lines, by adding in the DAC, and moving the 555PS from the NDX to the DAC.   For folks who do not already own the DAC, my recommendation is to give the NDX a good long listen on its own before doing anything else....it is that good.

Right now, you have a good solution for playing digital music using N-Serve and the DAC.  For you, I think the obvious upgrade route is to add an external PS to the DAC.  One thing that I do think you would find appealing is the NDX system automation features.  By hooking up RCA cables between the NDX and each of the preamp and DAC, you can use your iPad running N-Stream to control volume and select inputs automatically.   I think a good analogy for this stuff is a new car with an RF fob that automatically opens your door as you approach, and then starts the car with the push of a button.  If you are using a key to open and start your car, you don't even think about this stuff.   But once you've had these automation features for a while, the thought of going back to using a key is not going to happen! Call me lazy, but there is another side benefit.  My stereo setup has finally become easy enough for Mrs. Hook to use while I am not at home.  This may not matter to others, but it was a big deal for me (and has set the future WAF much lower as a result)!

All this said, I think you should get an NDX demo.  I see from your profile that you are used to an extemely high level of sound quality using the CD555.  To have any chance of coming close to that in a streaming environment, you will need more than the just the UnitiServe's S/PDIF output into the Naim DAC.   The NDX/555PS or NDX->DAC/555PS are both great options, and I will leave it to you and your ears to judge their sound quality.  This would also result in relegating your UnitiServe to UPnP "server" duty only (or it could continue to be a "hard disk player" in another separate system).

I think that's about it.  Would welcome comments from anyone else on any misconceptions I have, or mistakes I have made in writing this up.

HTH, and best of luck!

Hook

Hi Salmon Dave -

As far as the HDX goes, there is simply no functional difference between the hard disk being inside of the HDX itself, or inside of a NAS box on your network.  In both cases, it is playing the role of a "hard disk player".

I would be interested to hear from you if my long post above makes things more clear, or simply further muddies the water.  I wish Naim would put more effort into this.  A nice guide to the concepts, with pictures, would be nice.   A Youtube video with animations might also be helpful...

The thing that strikes me the most is the huge difference between how complicated this all sounds on paper, and how easy it is to setup and use in real life.   With a US and an NDX, it is literally:  1) shove the CD into the US to rip it, and 2) play it on the NDX.  It is as close to plug-and-play as I've ever seen.  It seems to me that is only when we start to use the technical language of DLNA/UPnP that most folks eyes start to glaze over.

Hook

Whereas for my needs and road map it is the ideal product. If push comes to shove it can play a CD too. How charmingly retro.

Choice is wonderful. Are we in danger of having too much? I hope not.

Hook, thanks for taking the time to explain things and address my questions/confusion directly. i will read your posting carefully and comment later. thanks again

enjoy

ken

Thanks for the long post which does indeed help to shed more light! I totally agree with you that Naim have made certain assumptions about their target market recently which could be addressed. Your suggestion about a video is pertinent - several other companies have made very good ones of general use.

As far as the Unitiserve goes - would there be a real difference between this and a RIPNAS at half the price?

keith, my experience too. pleasant surprise how easy it was to setup and also to use, in direct contrast to what written about it. i guess i was also lucky that i got some very useful hints here from some kind folk in relation to set up.

the biggest benefit so far is that i do less CD hopping, literally...

enjoy

ken

ADS walks it. KDS , do you really want to know. Start saving now!

RR

ADS walks it. KDS , do you really want to know. Start saving now!

Well each to their own, that wasn't my experience when I did the dem - I thought there was very little to choose between the ADS and the NDX. When you added power supplies I thought the NDX was clearly better.  As for the KDS, I can't comment as I haven't heard it.

Stuart

Reassuring to know, thanks. But all the more reason why Naim should be explaining this system properly as a holistic solution rather than relying on geekdom to come up with the answers. I'm not getting this when I read their literature - or talk to some dealers!

It’s a grey area and it’s a mile wide. The holistic solution is an HDD equipped HDX. Once you are putting and fetching files off board a number of platform independent (in the main) and non-proprietary options are available which are outside a manufacture’s remit to support and can never be fully explained because of the nature of the technology and all the people who use it in different ways. I have found Naim’s support to be excellent – despite the fact that the issues I had were not in any way to do with my Naim equipment. There is no one option definitely does it all – apart from an HDX-HDD.  A chap I know had a local network guy in to help set up his HDX. In retrospect it was probably overkill. But these are the sort of options available. It’s a different paradigm and one that is familiar to some. I think a part of the difficulty a dealer sometimes finds in explaining it comes down to what they don’t know about how a customer is configured at home and how much of it is lost in translation in both directions.

Please do as I am wondering the same myself

Thanks

For my own part, according to the narrow tests I did, I am completly sure.

This was comparing rips done on the HDX sent to internal HDD and repeated to NAS. As opposed to playing back files ripped via other engines at other locations. With the HDX there is no need for me to do this apart from a few occasions when I'm pulling the odd 24Bit track of a DVD or 20Bit from an HDCD (rounded up to 24). For all CD sourced material the HDX is a convenient and effective solution. As it is for plugging in HiRes files obtained elsewhere. Not the only solution admittedly, but when people ask for clarification and a definitive guide to simple ripping, storing, serving and streaming I just think "HDX".  The marketing department back at Salisbury must love me

Hi Claus -

My point was that an HDX "functions" as a "hard disk player" regardless of whether it gets its data from a file system, or from a network share.  I was just trying to help folks who are new to Naim's terminology understand that just because an HDX-SSD uses a NAS for storage, it is still different than an NDX "network player".  On first glance, they seem similar because they both use a NAS, but the NDX uses a different protocol (UPnP) to access the remote storage.

Also, please note that I neither commented on, nor even implied, any difference in sound quality between two HDX models, because I have not listened to them.   Based on reading a lot of his posts, I trust Harry's ears when he says there is no difference.  But if Harry had said that the SSD version sounded better to his ears (perhaps citing the claim that a solid state drive generates less electrical noise than a spinning hard disk), I would still believe him.

I hope you won't mind, Claus, if I take your post as an opportunity to (once again) organize some very basic thoughts on what I think matters when it comes to sound quality in a network audio setup.  As in my previous longish post, I would appreciate other's comments, additions, and especially, corrections...

When it comes to a complex replay chain of storage, servers, networks and players, I think we should focus on 1) timing and 2) the electrical connection itself, when it comes to effects on sound quality.   As we all know, the world economy is based on the reliable delivery of numbers from one computer to another over the internet.  Unlike audio streams, financial transactions are declared complete, or null and void, based on multiple levels of error checking.  There is no concept of timing -- no bank computer is going to say "oh well, I'm out of time, let's just assume this deposit really is for $100.37", and then goes ahead and updates your account balance.   It will only do so when it is 100% sure of the total, regardless of how much time that takes.  If it runs out of time before it can complete its error checks, then that bank computer will instead simply say "please try again".  

The operating systems of the computers in an audio replay chain work in exactly same way.  If two computers, let's say they are a UPnP server and renderer, encounter a noisy network, the one tells the other "please try again", potentially over and over and over.  But if they do run out of time, the music usually keeps playing, and all you experience are some dropouts.  But sometimes the errors become overwhelming, and a player could easily stop, and seek to reconnect and start anew with a fresh connection.

I cannot imagine any difference sound quality (other than dropouts and reconnects) introduced because of battle-tested protocols like ethernet and TCP/IP.   Unless there is a bug in the operating system of the computer, there will be no difference in the 1's and 0's the music player's software eventually reads from an operating system's buffers.   It simply does not matter whether those bits came from the local hard disk, or from a networked NAS.   If it did matter, then this would mean data corruption due to a bug in the hardware or software.  Not unheard of, but when something bad happens at a lower level of processing (device drivers, network card, cables and switches), the error checking logic at higher levels of software catches it.  If this did not work, we would be back to that global economic meltdown scenario!

But once the music player's application software has received those bits from the computer's operating system, all sorts of things can start to happen which can have an impact on sound quality.  There's oversampling and downsampling, there's DSP effects, and so on.  That's where we came up with the concept of whether or not a player can deliver a "bit perfect" stream.   In other words, is it delivering the exact same bits as were stored in the music file or not.  This sounds easy, but in reality it happens all of the time (think how easy it is to inadvertently check a box enabling a DSP effect for an output plugin).

So now we are at the point where a couple of questions can be asked:  1) have the bits have been delivered reliably over the network, and 2) is the the music player configured to deliver a "bit perfect" data stream to its output (and to a DAC)?  Unless something is broken, or set up incorrectly, the answer to both questions should be yes.   And if the answers are yes, then there is nothing that has happened up to this point in the replay that can have an effect on sound quality.

Now, at this point, all bets are off when it comes to sound quality, because this is where timing finally starts to matter.  The S/PDIF protocol doesn't use error checking, and instead uses a clock signal to inform the downstream DAC about how many bits per second are being sent.   Even if we are sending a "bit perfect" stream, if the clocking gets screwed up even just a little bit, then the timing is off and the result is called jitter.   Recall I said earlier that there were two things that could effect sound quality:  timing and electrical connections.   A connection with bad timing (higher jitter) sounds worse than one with lower jitter (and better timing).  

In addition, the electrical connection itself can introduce noise into the downstream DAC, causing the noise floor to be raised and the overall sound quality to be lowered.  In practice, any electrical connection can make a difference to sound quality.  For example, the long runs of ethernet cable can act as an antenna, allowing high frequency noise to travel along its surface.  You may recall Simon's good advice of using ferrite chokes to cut off this noise before it enters your network player or hard disk player (I use two, held in place with a small bead of Blu Tack, and I can hear the subtle improvement).

So there you have my basic understanding of the replay chain.  TBH, I do not think it makes any sense to look for differences in sound quality between a local disk and a NAS or, say, between two brands of NAS boxes.  Unless one is broken (has bugs in its software stack, or has an incorrect setting like "downsample all output to 48kHz"), there are no opportunities for the bits to magically change in flight.  There's just too much retry with error correction going on.  If two NAS boxes are working correctly, and if their settings are the same, then they just can't help but reliably deliver the same bits over a network.

And oh yeah Claus, I agree 100% with your recommendation that Naim needs to provide more information and tutorials to their prospects who are trying to make network audio purchase decisions.  It really is a lot more complicated now then it was back when CD was king.  And even if your Naim dealer is setting things up for you, it still makes sense to have an understanding of how everything works.  Otherwise, it is too easy to spend our hard-earned money on things that will not have an impact on sound quality.

Hook