Help choosing DAC : nDAC or DAC V1 ?

I find the DAC-V1 a really good match for the SN2.  I've been using such a setup for over a year now, and also primarily fed by a PC, and it is superb in my view.  Unfortunately I cannot give a view on how it compares to the nDAC.  If you're hooking up to a PC though, I would definitely give the DAC-V1 serious consideration.  A lot of effort has gone into the USB interface, and in my experience the sound quality of the USB route is head and shoulders above any SPDIF source I've tried, so if you're connecting a PC the V1 makes the most sense, and is why I bought one.  There are USB to SPDIF converters that some use in the absence of a USB input on the nDAC, and also some PCs do have an SPDIF output, usually optical in my experience, but I don't entirely trust them; I suspect they have not any particular care applied to them.

nDAC.

I have been using a DAC V1 for about 2 years and it's been very good up until I had the firmware upgrade and now it's superb! I was getting listening fatigue and after lots of other changes for the better I found the V1 upgrade the most noticeable improvement. CD5 XS now sounds even better through the V1. Not tried an nDAC but running my network reciever, Cambridge NP30, in to the V1 and that sounds amazing on good Radio3 output indeed anything with a high bitrate. And the V1 can handle just about anything I can throw at it. Mate of mine ran his laptop into it and that sounded great. Means I am porbably going to include laptop derived music soon. I would also like to hear comments from others re DAC V1 v nDAC though.

I think justification that Radio 3 stream sounds good is hardly a justification.

One needs to think carefully what a dac is expected to bring to a system.

nDAC 's brief is rather simple - to offer an upgrade digital to analogue conversion to other Naim digital players, essentially turning them into high quality transports. Further enhancement is done with an external PSU. It can handle multiple digital connections e.g. `NDX and CDX2 via DC-1.

DAC V-1 is a combined pre-amp (digital only) and a DAC. No PSU upgrde options are available. It can only handle one NAIM component via DC-1.

Thank you for all your answers.

Adam, I understand that nDAC is to be considered as a DAC upgrade for CDX2 and such.

My idea was to use it connected to a computer. Have you any experience with that?

I enjoy to the CDX2. I would like the DAC connected to the computer to sound equivalent or better.

In that case which sounds best, nDAC or DAC V1 ?

Is there a way for you to do a home trial? For PC with the nDAC, I would recommend optical as the input.

Not what you asked at all, but the Chord 2qute to me is by far the best dac I have heard. It is certainly worth a listen!

James

TomSer posted:

Good evening,

I would like to ask for help concerning the choice of a DAC.

Currently I have the following system:

CDX2 --> SuperNait 2 + HiCap DR --> JMR Abscisse

I am very pleased with the sound it produces which I find clear and detailed.

My aim is to use my PC to play the flac version of my music library, but hesitate between two options:

Options A :
PC ---> Naim DAC V1 ---> SuperNait 2 + HiCap DR --> JMR Abscisse


Options B :
PC ---> Naim nDAC ---> SuperNait 2 + HiCap DR --> JMR Abscisse


For option B, how should I connect the PC to the nDAC ?

Which option is best, keeping in mind that my taste in terms of sound goes to clear and detailed music reproduction? I mostly listen to classical (baroque) and jazz music.

Thank you very much for your help and advises,

Thomas

On your source: I do not know what you precisely mean by PC but, for outstanding sound quality, you will need a dedicated device. Popular solutions include mac minis running Audirvana under OS X, fanless microservers (NUC, Raspberry Pi, fit-PC, ...) running JRiver under Windows or MPD (MinimServer + upmpdcli + MPD) under Linux. If you do not want to set up a small dedicated server yourself, you can buy a ready-to-use music server. Generally speaking, this implies higher costs and less flexibility but there is a new generation of devices that might be worth considering: Bryston BDP-Pi, Sonore Sonic Orbiter, micro Rendu, Melco, ... 

On Option A vs B: If your source does not provide high quality SPDIF outputs (which is the case for all solutions outlined above) you will need a USB to SPDIF interface for B. The DAC V1 has an internal USB to SPDIF interface (from Audiophilleo, I believe) and can be directly connected to a USB port. With a decent interface (Audiophilleo, Gustard, M2Tech, Audiobyte ... please check https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...nverter-for-naim-dac) I would expect the nDAC to perform better than the V1 but I have not made any direct comparison.

TomSer posted:

Thank you for all your answers.

Adam, I understand that nDAC is to be considered as a DAC upgrade for CDX2 and such.

My idea was to use it connected to a computer. Have you any experience with that?

I enjoy to the CDX2. I would like the DAC connected to the computer to sound equivalent or better.

In that case which sounds best, nDAC or DAC V1 ?

Tom

You can connect an nDAC to a PC / MAC using an optical input.

Will it sound as good as CDX2 - difficult to predict. But I would hazard a guess it will not. Quality of digital transports is of a paramount importance when connecting to any DAC.

Adam

TomSer posted:

Thank you for all your answers.

Adam, I understand that nDAC is to be considered as a DAC upgrade for CDX2 and such.

My idea was to use it connected to a computer. Have you any experience with that?

I enjoy to the CDX2. I would like the DAC connected to the computer to sound equivalent or better.

In that case which sounds best, nDAC or DAC V1 ?

Tom, having owned an NDAC and still owning a CDX2, I wouldn't say the NDAC automatically 'upgrades' a suitable CDX2. Sure the NDAC is very capable and ultimately more flexible and resolving, but the CDX2 has a distinctive voicing and sound that I guess is what we we were initially drawn to. The NDAC has a very different presentation and sounds so very different to the CDX2. The more resolving your system and speakers are the more apparent this difference becomes.

Simon

If you want to use a computer as source, popular opinion is that one of the best is a Mac Mini, running Audirvana as renderer - SQ can beat that of numbers of Naim streamers. Mac Mini has advantages of virtual silence, small size, stability, ease of running 'headless (no screen or keyboard etc.), and Audirvana can be dedicated, not allowing other software to run that could degrade performance, and completely bypassing the inbuilt soundcard with output via a dedicated usb. But beware that computers are electrically noisy devices, including MM though it is said to be better than many, and not all DACs have the necessary galvanic and RF isolation to exclude the noise, which can degrade SQ, ditto jitter if the DAC doesn't re-clock. A common solution is an isolator of some kind (I use a Gustard U12 usb-spdif isolator-convertor berween MM/Audiv and  Chord Hugo, taking care of electrical/rf noise, while the Hugo re-clocks. Wouldn't be necessary with HugoTT which has galvanic isolation and RF filters. I don't know about the isolation capability of the Naim DACs, however Richard Dane is presently testing the Gustard for suitability as a convertor for the nDAC which doesn't have a usb input.

In terms of sound, I auditioned the NDAC and V1 (both fed by a MacBook Pro and Audirvana, USB fir the V1 and optical for the NDAC).  I liked the presentation of the V1 and have been delighted with the V1 since 2013.

There are many DACs to choose from.  Popular on this forum, in addition to the V1 and NDAC are the Chord Hugo and 2Qute.  So, I would audition these which presentation you prefer.

Price wise, they are pretty similar (assuming a second hand NDAC and no PSU).

 A key points abou these DACs:

• the NDAC does not have asynchronous USB, which is the best way to ge music from a computer. The workaround, as mentioned in earlier posts, is to add a USB to SPDIF converter.  
• the NDAC and Hugo do not have galvanic isolation to reduce electrical noise transfer from a computer to the DAC when connected via async USB (so an isolator is used as mentioned above).
• The V1's pre is designed to be bypassed when being used with a more capable pre such as the SN2.  Don't know about the Chord DACs.  The NDAC doesn't have a pre as mentioned above.

As others have mentioned, auditioning is the best way to decide which DAC is best for you (as they can all be used with a computer and CDX2) and to judge whether the CDX2 sounds best connected directly to the SN2.

Jude

I've owned nDAC for five years now and like op, run it to SN2 + HCDR. I used to use the original SuperNait's integrated DAC. Needless to say, nDAC was a huge upgrade to that. I've also compared nDAC to DAC-V1 at one point. I borrowed one from my dealer when Naim released V1. In DAC only mode and with USB connection against a bare nDAC, V1 came quite close. The sound was only slightly flatter and one dimensional than nDAC. Of course it's difficult to do a clear comparison since with nDAC you need to use USB bridge to connect it to the PC. Back then, I used Stello U3 as my USB bridge, nowadays I have TeddyPardo U2S which was clearly better in comparison. USB bridges can have huge effect on SQ so you need to choose one carefully with nDAC. In my experience, a good USB bridge is always a better option than optical/coaxial connection from PC. I can't comment on MAC since I've never used one as my source.

I'm absolutely happy with nDac that is now even better after the firmware update and do not feel the urge to compare to any other dac out there. In my experience the nDac is very sensitive to the quality of the digital transport. I nerver found a optical cable that I liked, so my current setup is:

MacBook Air with Amarra Software --> Audiophilleo with PurePower USB-S/PDIF --> nDac

I have read somewhere here on the forum that Audiophilleo technology was licensed for the USB section of the DacV1. This made my buy an Audiophilleo with PurePower battery support which sounds much better than any other USB bridge I had before.  Really happy with this setup now.

p. posted:

... This made my buy an Audiophilleo with PurePower battery support which sounds much better than any other USB bridge I had before.  Really happy with this setup now.

Could you please provide some feedback on the other USB bridges you have compared the Audiophilleo to?

I also can report that the Naim DAC is quite sensitive to the quality of the transport (which, in my view, does not speak for the Naim DAC) and I would be interested to know if I could further improve the quality of my current system by replacing my USB bridge with a better one. Thanks, nbpf

nbpf posted:

p. posted:

... This made my buy an Audiophilleo with PurePower battery support which sounds much better than any other USB bridge I had before.  Really happy with this setup now.

Could you please provide some feedback on the other USB bridges you have compared the Audiophilleo to?

I also can report that the Naim DAC is quite sensitive to the quality of the transport (which, in my view, does not speak for the Naim DAC) and I would be interested to know if I could further improve the quality of my current system by replacing my USB bridge with a better one. Thanks, nbpf

Yes of course: I owned a Musical Fidelity Vlink and I had others on loan from my dealer, M2Tech hiFace and something else I forgot, as well as a bunch of optical cables from Audioquest. Still own one of these Audioquest optical cables that I sometimes use to get the sound of DVD/movies to the stereo.

From all these options the Audiophilleo was by far the solution I liked the most. For a while I connected the Audiophilleo via digital cable (Audioquest as well) to the nDAC until I found that it´s quite an improvement to connect it directly via BNC-connector to the nDAC, skipping the digital cable.

Some say the Audiophilleo can only be bettered by a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB, but this is difficult to get in Europe and twice the price.

Maybe the USB-cable from the Mac to the Audiophilleo has an effect as well, I use quite an expensive Audioquest here and did not yet bother to try other USB cables.

In my view the nDAC is a real diva: extremely sensible on everything from power to placement and transport - yet I really enjoy the sound and the flexibility of multiple inputs, direct iPhone/iPad connection.

I'm kinda intrigued to compare the customised Audiphilleo 2 in the V1 with, Auphilleo 2 plus Purepower connected to the NDAC.  

I understand  that it is possible to connect the Audiphilleo 2 and Puerpower combo directly (via BNC) to the NDAC, is that correct ? (If so takes one of the complexities /variables out of the way).  

Jude

Jude2012 posted:

I'm kinda intrigued to compare the customised Audiphilleo 2 in the V1 with, Auphilleo 2 plus Purepower connected to the NDAC.  

I understand  that it is possible to connect the Audiphilleo 2 and Puerpower combo directly (via BNC) to the NDAC, is that correct ? (If so takes one of the complexities /variables out of the way).  

Jude

I mean Audiphilleo 1

Jude2012 posted:

Jude2012 posted:

I'm kinda intrigued to compare the customised Audiphilleo 2 in the V1 with, Auphilleo 2 plus Purepower connected to the NDAC.  

I understand  that it is possible to connect the Audiphilleo 2 and Puerpower combo directly (via BNC) to the NDAC, is that correct ? (If so takes one of the complexities /variables out of the way).  

Jude

I mean Audiphilleo 1

Nice comparison, curious to hear what you find out. Yes a direct connection via BNC-connector is possible and brings sonic benefits over the digital cables I´ve used until now.

p. posted:

nbpf posted:

p. posted:

... This made my buy an Audiophilleo with PurePower battery support which sounds much better than any other USB bridge I had before.  Really happy with this setup now.

Could you please provide some feedback on the other USB bridges you have compared the Audiophilleo to?

I also can report that the Naim DAC is quite sensitive to the quality of the transport (which, in my view, does not speak for the Naim DAC) and I would be interested to know if I could further improve the quality of my current system by replacing my USB bridge with a better one. Thanks, nbpf

Yes of course: I owned a Musical Fidelity Vlink and I had others on loan from my dealer, M2Tech hiFace and something else I forgot, as well as a bunch of optical cables from Audioquest. Still own one of these Audioquest optical cables that I sometimes use to get the sound of DVD/movies to the stereo.

From all these options the Audiophilleo was by far the solution I liked the most. For a while I connected the Audiophilleo via digital cable (Audioquest as well) to the nDAC until I found that it´s quite an improvement to connect it directly via BNC-connector to the nDAC, skipping the digital cable.

Some say the Audiophilleo can only be bettered by a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB, but this is difficult to get in Europe and twice the price.

Maybe the USB-cable from the Mac to the Audiophilleo has an effect as well, I use quite an expensive Audioquest here and did not yet bother to try other USB cables.

In my view the nDAC is a real diva: extremely sensible on everything from power to placement and transport - yet I really enjoy the sound and the flexibility of multiple inputs, direct iPhone/iPad connection.

Thanks! I have not made very systematic tests but I can say that the M2Tech hiFace Evo (with TP power supply) was an obvious improvement over the M2Tech hiFace. The Naim DC1 BNC-BNC was also an improvement over optical and coaxial connections. It would be very nice to have more systematic tests and reviews of USB to SPDIF interfaces.  I guess Naim has made systematic tests when developing the V1 and it would be nice if they would provide some guidelines for nDAC users. I have been wandering whether the Audiophilleo or the Audiobyte Hydra Z would bring improvements over the M2Tech hiFace Evo but I have not managed to test these devices so far. Best, nbpf 

nbpf posted:

 It would be very nice to have more systematic tests and reviews of USB to SPDIF interfaces.  I guess Naim has made systematic tests when developing the V1 and it would be nice if they would provide some guidelines for nDAC users. 

Absolutely agree!

Frankly I´m not very optimistic that Naim will provide us with this information, as they want to sell streaming devices.

Maybe I will evaluate a Naim streamer against computer+Audiophilleo in the future and see where it leads me to.

Check out the thread I started "Hugo of streaming?" Running the Sonore microRendu into a DAC V1 and it's pretty incredible for the price. Love the V1's functionality as well as a pre (the volume knob is sublime). My two cents....

p. posted:

nbpf posted:

 It would be very nice to have more systematic tests and reviews of USB to SPDIF interfaces.  I guess Naim has made systematic tests when developing the V1 and it would be nice if they would provide some guidelines for nDAC users. 

Absolutely agree!

Frankly I´m not very optimistic that Naim will provide us with this information, as they want to sell streaming devices.

Maybe I will evaluate a Naim streamer against computer+Audiophilleo in the future and see where it leads me to.

Richard Dane is currently evaluating the Gustard U12 abd Yellowtec PUC2 (search of forums will find)

p. posted:

nbpf posted:

 It would be very nice to have more systematic tests and reviews of USB to SPDIF interfaces.  I guess Naim has made systematic tests when developing the V1 and it would be nice if they would provide some guidelines for nDAC users. 

...

Frankly I´m not very optimistic that Naim will provide us with this information, as they want to sell streaming devices.

...

True. But I believe that their current approach towards streaming is questionable and that, on the long term, they will not be able to ignore the fact that many Naim users prefer to have their streamers and DACs directly connected to their mac minis, Melcos, Rendus, Aries, Raspberry Pis, etc. For these users, the nDAC is still a valid proposition and, so far, Naim has not failed to support them. For instance, with their latest firmware upgrade. From this perspective, not passing available information on USB to SPDIF interfaces to nDAC owners seems a kind of weird policy to me. Just my two cents, of course. Best, nbpf

In fairness to Naim, they can't really comment on how other manufacturer's products might work with their components, nor recommend particular types. It comes down to relying on us users to post our experiences as an initial guide, then trying them in your own system.

For my part, I've tried a Stello, which was excellent, but not as good as a Wave IO async. board, powered by a Paul Hynes regulator. For interest, I tried the Wave in my second system into my V1 DAC, compared with its own USB input, which was interesting but inconclusive - both had different strengths so for simplicity I use the V1's excellent USB input.