Headphone amps compared

It's odd because the noise is unaffected by volume. It is completely silent when front display led is unlit. tried balanced and unbalanced but same issue. the xlr speaker cable or any other cable makes no difference when moved. noise there even when no inputs attached. both speakers the same. defo noise from display led.

i also get change of input when adjusting volume (but rare)! so why did u move on from tt and atc? scm25a are similar to scm40a. its difficult to imagine how it can be improved (no led display noise obviously!).

i wonder if going to a preamp rather than power amp makes a difference?

Halloween Man posted:

It's odd because the noise is unaffected by volume. It is completely silent when front display led is unlit. tried balanced and unbalanced but same issue. the xlr speaker cable or any other cable makes no difference when moved. noise there even when no inputs attached. both speakers the same. defo noise from display led.

i also get change of input when adjusting volume (but rare)! so why did u move on from tt and atc? scm25a are similar to scm40a. its difficult to imagine how it can be improved (no led display noise obviously!).

i wonder if going to a preamp rather than power amp makes a difference?

Strange. I'd get straight onto Chord, but might be worth trying a power amp or preamp or anything with a phono input to see whether it is ATC related.

Why did I move on from TT and ATC SCM25A? Simple. DAVE and ATC SCM50ASLT Anniversary. Just incredible.

ah, now i understand why u moved on! that is one system i would love to hear.

i have informed the good folks at chord electronics and they are investigating. i take it you get no such issues with dave and your speakers?

u might find it interesting to know that tt, dave, and atc scm40a are all single ended. tt and dave convert single ended to balanced and atc convert balanced to single ended. to preserve transparency it may be better to go unbalanced rca to xlr. worth comparing balanced and unbalanced cables. scm40a have single xlr input that accepts balanced or unbalanced signal.

Halloween Man posted:

ah, now i understand why u moved on! that is one system i would love to hear.

i have informed the good folks at chord electronics and they are investigating. i take it you get no such issues with dave and your speakers?

u might find it interesting to know that tt, dave, and atc scm40a are all single ended. tt and dave convert single ended to balanced and atc convert balanced to single ended. to preserve transparency it may be better to go unbalanced rca to xlr. worth comparing balanced and unbalanced cables. scm40a have single xlr input that accepts balanced or unbalanced signal.

No such issues with my DAVE, absolute silence at 0db - just to be sure I checked again before I made my previous post. Thanks for the info about single ended - have seen what Rob W has said in another place so will try my single ended leads which I have left from when I had a Hugo.  My balanced leads are about 6m of Canare star quad so will be interesting to see if single ended gives me a little extra or not.  My system is already incredibly transparent and convincing. Btw, does it make any difference to your noise issue if you run your TT from batteries - ie with the power lead completely disconnected? Just a thought.

kuma posted:

J.N. posted:

Main-amplifier integral h/p amps are generally a kind of free 'add-on' and okay but nothing special. If one engages in a lot of h/p listening, a dedicated amplifier is essential.

With a lot of headphone use in evidence, I'm surprised that Naim haven't revamped the long in the tooth and average sounding (to these ears at least) Headline; or indeed developed a much more 'serious' and higher-cost device. The Headline is a daft bit of kit; ideally requiring a Supercap to give of its best - then becoming overpriced for its performance level.

There are many better, (and simpler one-box) h/p amps out there; and as ever, one must simply listen and find a good synergistic match with one's chosen headphones.

Come on Naim. Make a really good headphone amp. The market is crying out for it.

John,

I agree that I was hoping Naim to come up with a Superline level 'phone amp (with cct. board on a floating brass slab etc..), I disagree regarding your assessment of their current Headline 2 particularly with HD800.

I was in a search of better closed can a few years ago so I went to a Head-fi meet with my HL2 and NAPSC to hear various headphones.

Boy, did I hear a lot of *crap* headphone amps!
HD800 was everywhere and driven by many different amps both valves and solid state and guess what! the HD800 sounded the best with my humble HL2/NAPSC.

Now this was before Sennheiser came out with their own amp for the HD800 so I do not know how it fairs, HL2/HD800 ( with a proper source ) was most enjoyable for me.

As far as the use of a SC with HL2, it certainly isn't a mandatory I feel as even a littlest NAPSC has the Naim sound I love in spade. I certainly did not get this when I was listening via non Naim amps.

Provision for a chassis mounted DIN socket would be also nice as I think that the stock captive plug is limiting its performance. ( albeit it is generally much better than various non Naim aftermarket cords I have tried so I could see from the factory stand point,  having this is better than using a less than optimal none Naim cable )

I got mine modified and used a Hi-line, there was a marked performance boost. I've no doubt that Super Lumina also can be good here.

Kuma - Are you going direct from SuperLine to Headline or are you using a preamp in between?  

I have a spare HiLine but would need to convert one side to a DIN4 if coming direct from the SL. I'm trying to decide if this is worthwhile...

Back to the OP - As far as the headphone amps in the 272 & SN2, I found them adequate at best, but in no way suited to the HD800 or other demanding cans.  If you are serious about headphones and want Naim then the Headline + HCDR (or SCDR) is really the only way  to go. 

Now if I could only try the new Focal Utopia or Elear with my HL...

MarkMcK79 posted:

Kuma - Are you going direct from SuperLine to Headline or are you using a preamp in between?  

I have a spare HiLine but would need to convert one side to a DIN4 if coming direct from the SL. I'm trying to decide if this is worthwhile...

MarkMcK79,

It was straight from SuperLine via Supercap to a SC'd NAHA. So I was using HILine DIN4/5.
Some crazy experiment I was doing!

Was it worth it. You bet but ultimately convenience won over and I went back to a conventional NAHA/HC via 52's Tape socket. I got tired of unplugging and plugging between speakers/headphones. Nice to switch just hit a mute button and I'm in business.
I don't advise you to modify your Hiline, tho. ( unless the factory reterminate it for you ) Otherwise, just get a new 4/5 HiLine.

However, originally I used it with a Nagra PLL preamp ( DIN5/RCA ) so that I can adjust a volume via remote.
It was a sonic disaster, I must say...

One thing I have learnt tho, is that a direct feed off a source isn't necessarily good for NAHA. Having a Naim preamp in the middle sometimes gives better dynamics and lower noise floor ( depending on a power supply feeding the pre )

likesmusic posted:

Halloween Man posted:

ah, now i understand why u moved on! that is one system i would love to hear.

i have informed the good folks at chord electronics and they are investigating. i take it you get no such issues with dave and your speakers?

u might find it interesting to know that tt, dave, and atc scm40a are all single ended. tt and dave convert single ended to balanced and atc convert balanced to single ended. to preserve transparency it may be better to go unbalanced rca to xlr. worth comparing balanced and unbalanced cables. scm40a have single xlr input that accepts balanced or unbalanced signal.

No such issues with my DAVE, absolute silence at 0db - just to be sure I checked again before I made my previous post. Thanks for the info about single ended - have seen what Rob W has said in another place so will try my single ended leads which I have left from when I had a Hugo.  My balanced leads are about 6m of Canare star quad so will be interesting to see if single ended gives me a little extra or not.  My system is already incredibly transparent and convincing. Btw, does it make any difference to your noise issue if you run your TT from batteries - ie with the power lead completely disconnected? Just a thought.

the canare is similar to what im using, sommer emc quad xlr-xlr, sounds superb. after speaking with atc and chord it seems like rca-xlr maybe worth a try so have chord shawline rca-xlr on order, im only running 2m pair.

i have tried running from battery but made no difference unfortunately.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It's only worth it if you value the differences you hear. I don't know the Mojo, but I value the difference I hear between Hugo and HugoTT. The TT has a more capable headphone stage than the Hugo which I am told suits the higher impedance Sennheisers better.

Simon

 

FWIW, I have returned the Hugo TT.. In the end I prefer the standard Hugo on SPDIF. The HugoTT might still have been running in after a week and a half, but I feel the overall differences were very subtle in the end, and there is something about the original Hugo that just seems to gel with my Naim and just sounds more 'musical'.

Interesting Simon. I guess it's all down to preferences at the end of the day. For myself the move to TT was mostly motivated by the isolated usb, and using it as a preamp with remote volume control direct to power amp/active speakers but I also valued the uplift in sound quality I percieved from original Hugo (smoother/less bright with better instrument separation/soundstaging but as you say these were subtle differences).

kuma posted:

MarkMcK79 posted:

Kuma - Are you going direct from SuperLine to Headline or are you using a preamp in between?  

I have a spare HiLine but would need to convert one side to a DIN4 if coming direct from the SL. I'm trying to decide if this is worthwhile...

MarkMcK79,

It was straight from SuperLine via Supercap to a SC'd NAHA. So I was using HILine DIN4/5.
Some crazy experiment I was doing!

Was it worth it. You bet but ultimately convenience won over and I went back to a conventional NAHA/HC via 52's Tape socket. I got tired of unplugging and plugging between speakers/headphones. Nice to switch just hit a mute button and I'm in business.
I don't advise you to modify your Hiline, tho. ( unless the factory reterminate it for you ) Otherwise, just get a new 4/5 HiLine.

However, originally I used it with a Nagra PLL preamp ( DIN5/RCA ) so that I can adjust a volume via remote.
It was a sonic disaster, I must say...

One thing I have learnt tho, is that a direct feed off a source isn't necessarily good for NAHA. Having a Naim preamp in the middle sometimes gives better dynamics and lower noise floor ( depending on a power supply feeding the pre )

Kuma - Thanks for the diagram.  Interesting observation about the need for a preamp in-between.  For the last few days I've been running the HL/HCDR straight from an ND5 XS and felt a little something was missing in the drive.  I'll try slotting a pre in the mix and see if that resolves things.

If I remember correctly, you were a fan of the HL/HD800 combination.  Have you had any experience with the newer HD800S yet?

MarkMcK79 posted:

If I remember correctly, you were a fan of the HL/HD800 combination.  Have you had any experience with the newer HD800S yet?

MarkMck79,

Yes. I loved the HL/HD800 combo. But I have yet to hear the new HD800S. ( looks sexy in black )

It would be interesting to hear what they did. I hope they did not dumb down the product to appease to those who use a portable amp with a low resolution files.

I have 252 into HL/HD800 and like the combo. I also use them with MAC/Hugo (night table), nice combo also.

A review states: "HD 800S touting improvements in bass response along with a hip new black color scheme and an included XLR-4 headphone cord for use with balanced-drive headphone amps...

... offers all of the sonic strengths and audio performance advancements of the original model but with just a touch more low-end  presence, which made it sound slightly smoother overall and more musically cohesive to all of our headphone.com testers".

Regards.  Erich

I never found the HD800 light on bass. In fact, when I auditions many cans before buying a pair, the really notable thing was how incredibly low and clear the 800 managed to get without sounding dark. I had always assumed that the 800S was to address the other end of the scale since so many people are fans of modding (or ruining depending on how you see it) their 800 with thick felt added to the inner fabric grille.

Erich posted:

I have 252 into HL/HD800 and like the combo. I also use them with MAC/Hugo (night table), nice combo also.

A review states: "HD 800S touting improvements in bass response along with a hip new black color scheme and an included XLR-4 headphone cord for use with balanced-drive headphone amps...

... offers all of the sonic strengths and audio performance advancements of the original model but with just a touch more low-end  presence, which made it sound slightly smoother overall and more musically cohesive to all of our headphone.com testers".

Regards.  Erich

Dear Erich how do you compare HL vs Hugo with HD800? 

feeling_zen posted:

I never found the HD800 light on bass. In fact, when I auditions many cans before buying a pair, the really notable thing was how incredibly low and clear the 800 managed to get without sounding dark. I had always assumed that the 800S was to address the other end of the scale since so many people are fans of modding (or ruining depending on how you see it) their 800 with thick felt added to the inner fabric grille.

I agree.

One of the thing I was impressed the most  was its clean and fast, almost SL2 like bass delivery. Seamless from top to bottom, it possessed the nimbleness of electrostats but with firm transient attacks of dynamic transducers.

Erich posted:

A review states: "HD 800S touting improvements in bass response along with a hip new black color scheme and an included XLR-4 headphone cord for use with balanced-drive headphone amps...

... offers all of the sonic strengths and audio performance advancements of the original model but with just a touch more low-end  presence, which made it sound slightly smoother overall and more musically cohesive to all of our headphone.com testers".

Out of curiosity, I would like to know which amp and source the reviewer and the *testers* use for this review.

Halloween Man posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

It's only worth it if you value the differences you hear. I don't know the Mojo, but I value the difference I hear between Hugo and HugoTT. The TT has a more capable headphone stage than the Hugo which I am told suits the higher impedance Sennheisers better.

Simon

 

Simon, I'm currently experiencing an issue with my TT and wondered if you have the same problem in your setup. I noticed that when the front led display is on/lit then a faint high pitch noise can be heard through the speakers (SCM40A), it's audible 0.5-3 foot away. The noise disappears once the front led display times out and switches to off. The noise is not audible through headphone out.

Happy to report Chord Electronics have resolved my issue.