Linn Majik Isobariks

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the input. I'm really hoping I can get these to work in my room because as you say, they have got some kind of musical mojo. Tomorrow I'll pay attention to low volume listening as the misos give a very full response played low. At one point today my wife came in to talk to me and until I had the reference of her voice I wasn't aware of how loud I was playing.  I'm also going to remove the HCDR from my SN2 and see how that works.

Joe, I also meant to add that my speakers are only 6 inches out from the rear wall aswell! All the walls are solid as is the floor which is fully carpeted with a thick underlay but it would appear that my ceiling maybe lower than yours.

You're certainly right about the volume aspect Joe.

They certainly look good, and if they have some musical magic, sadly missing in much of what's made today, then lets hope the bass issue can be sorted.

I'm thinking that some of the bass issue may be caused by the SN2 not really being up to the task, though that may be entirely wrong of course. I'd suggest it's worth an hour's work to move the record storage, and then moving the speakers nearer to the wall and a bit further apart. I've tried a couple of speakers that had a lot of bass and were inadequately driven and both turned out to be impossible to live with. Both were bought exdem so could be sold with little loss, but those Isobariks are a lot of money and it would be awful to make a mistake. I'm also thinking that that nice back wall would be just right for some SBLs, assuming of course that it's solid. 

HH might be right re the SN2 and bass. I would say that i had similar bass issues with a pair of Kudos X2 in my room and no amount of amp or change of placement could cure the bass rumble (energy) with that tiny speaker obviously designed to boost a certain bass frequency.

Im neither suggesting the fault is with the SN2 or the speakers, but lt could be a factor of both in the room. A better amp may help but may not cure completely. Doubtless Joe will be optimising setup and hopefully it pays dividends.

In a rectangular room like yours it is often easier to get good balance of sound by 'firing' down the room rather than across - have you tried that? In general terms the listening position should be well away from the rear wall (often best either around 1/3rd of distance from either front or rear wall).

If you'e tried all manner of placements and nothing seems right then I suggest some room measurement would be appropriate to help decide what's happening, and aid a correct solution. There's an excellent free (donations invited) computer program called REW (Room Equalisation Wizard), though it requires a suitable microphone, which would cost about £100. I don't know whether any dealers might have a mic available that could be borrowed.

With such a program you can see if it is particular frequencies that are the problem, or perhaps a general rising bass possibly due to rear wall proximity etc, and it also shows impulse decay response which help determine if it is reverberation causing overhang of notes as opposed to. Walking the microphone around also helps find optimum listening position from a frequency response perspective when trying speakers in various positions, while also showing just what the various positions are doing.

Without measurement, another tip I have come across is put a speaker in the desired listening position facing the direction where speakers will be, and walk around - locations where it sounds best are likely to be best positions for the speakers, subject to finding two locations that otherwise fit. Conventional near-equilateral triangle is a guide, but in problem rooms sometimes apparently 'wrong' positioning can sound right.

Incidentally, whether shelves full of stuff like LPs, CDs and books would be effective bass traps would depend on factors like the density of the material on the shelves, and any gaps behind them - more usually their major effect if they have uneven facial surfaces is scattering of higher frequencies, reducing reflections which can improve overall sound.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm thinking that some of the bass issue may be caused by the SN2 not really being up to the task, though that may be entirely wrong of course. I'd suggest it's worth an hour's work to move the record storage, and then moving the speakers nearer to the wall and a bit further apart. I've tried a couple of speakers that had a lot of bass and were inadequately driven and both turned out to be impossible to live with. Both were bought exdem so could be sold with little loss, but those Isobariks are a lot of money and it would be awful to make a mistake. I'm also thinking that that nice back wall would be just right for some SBLs, assuming of course that it's solid. 

Based on my own experience this year I would agree that amp may be at the heart of the bass problem for the OP.  

I'd been running Kudos S20's with 52/SC/250 and was generally very happy with the sound, other than a slightly "plummy" and boomy bass, which I attributed to my room and the ported design of the speaker.  I was wrong.  After replacing the 250 with a pair of 135's the boomy bass was eliminated - what I then had was less, but more accurate bass.  This has just happened again this week, albeit to a much more subtle level, by replacing the Akiva in my LP12 with a Kandid.  

Paradoxically, having initially started out believing the size and shape of the room would limit my speaker choices, I now believe that the S20's are performing "to spec" and to get a deeper bass and more slam would actually require something like Kudos Titans or Linn Accubariks.

I auditioned these when they were first launched, with high hopes. I was looking for the end game speaker for my 252/SC/300. I know it's all down to personal preferences and the room, but to be honest I was very disappointed with the Isobariks. I found them closed in, constrained, compressed, with a nasal quality, tiring and painful to listen to! If I remember rightly, Kudos C30's were substituted which were much better. The XL6's were then installed and bingo, I knew I had found the answer.

I understand the cost differentials but I couldn't live with the Linns at any price. However, whatever floats your boat and good luck with finding the right solution for you! 

My experience with the Misos after living (& loving) with them for 4 1/2 years is the total opposite to Ponty's even though I also have the same amplifier combination.

I 'stumbled' across the speakers quite by accident at the Linn dealer in Chester (Adventures in Hi-fi) when I called in there on another matter related to the Keilidhs, which I was still using at the time after 16 years plus. Knowing that I intended to upgrade the rest of the system which included NAC32/HC/2 x NAP140's, I decided to investigate the speaker end first and after comparing the likes of Proac, Kudos, PMC etc., most of which sounded bright, harsh and/or very forward and lacking a natural body to the sound, I got the 'feeling'  that the Miso's were the most likely to sound best in my room was convinced that the Miso's were worth a home loan of the dealers demo pair to confirm that 'feeling', I was right. They worked very well with my old Naim amp combination, therefore I ordered a pair and even when the new ones arrived they still impressed straight out of the box but improved further over time (several weeks).

I upgraded the rest of the system over a little more time moving from the NAC32.5/HC/NAP140 setup to NAC282/SC/2 x NAP200's, then replacing the pre-amp section with the NAC252 & Supercap DR and then replacing the two power amps with a single NAP300 and then finally replacing that with the DR version shortly after it's launch. Most of these developments were made when Naim and Acoustica had 'special offers' running, so not too financially painful and during each upgrading stage the Miso's were capable of illustrating the improvements with absolute ease (much more so than the Kudos, Dynaudio and Focal speakers which had been used on the different occasions spent at the dealers premises for the amp upgrade demos).

For the record, the rest of my system consists of Rega RP10 with Apheta 2, Superline powered by Supercap DR, NAT05XS Tuner, CD5XS with nDAC all installed on Quadraspire Q4 EVO racks.

To me (and not only me), my system sounds so 'right' (and it is used for several hours every day) that I would be afraid to change anything at all now in fear of losing what I already have apart from the NACA5 speaker cable to Super Lumina, probably.

I do hope that you make progress with your project Joe and I will follow it with interest.  

Derek: slightly off topic (for which I apologise to Joe in advance) but do try a better rack at some point - if Fraim doesn't float your boat you could try the excellent Quadraspire SVT bamboo, with the upgrade bronze spikes. 

Many thanks HH, I will probably look at that aspect when I finally get round to the cabling 'project', I am always open to sensible suggestions such as yours.

I meant to add in my previous posting, that with experience over the years (I was 65 yesterday and now an 'official' state pensioner!) I have become a great believer in synergy, that is, synergy between all the components within the system and then a synergy between the system and the room. That's the main reason why I ran the 'Keilidh system' for over 16 years but in a previous home.

I moved to my current address after losing my gorgeous darling wife to cancer five years ago and eventually realised that music was going to become an even more important need in my life but was left in a fortunate financial position enabling me to embark upon a major hi-fi upgrade path.

Obviously, despite all the pleasure and joy which my system has brought it could never equal that of having my wife Caroline back. 

Many thanks for all the supportive input! My first move this morning was to remove the HCDR from the SN2. A slightly different presentation. Mids came a bit more to the fore - not a bad thing. Some grip on the bass was lost and perhaps a small amount of the bass intensity. Time will tell how that plays into the fatigue factor. I also did more repositioning wider apart and closer to the front wall. I have to conclude that in my room having the misos closer to a boundary tends to reinforce bass and probably explains why I prefer the closer together and further from the front wall position. This in contrast to rear ported speakers where closer to the wall tends to tighten bass response. I suspect this has to do with the misos' isobarik unit being omni-directional. The misos stage and image well regardless of position which makes it easy for me to focus on finding the best position for bass response.

As far as amps, the misos are very easy to drive. For CDs I'm playing them at 8:30 on the volume dial versus 10 o'clock with the Sttafs. No doubt a different amp would change the presentation, however I'm locked into using my SN2 at present. Although my dealer is a Naim dealer, he only stocks Musos and Qbs . 

I'm pretty much locked into the present front wall for my set up. The wall to the left of my listening position is a large bay window, the wall to the right has a large entry to the kitchen, and the rear wall a large entry to the front hall. The front wall is an exterior wall - 2x6 studs covered with drywall and fiberglass insulation. The floor is suspended - plywood on 2x10 joists over a crawl space, fiberglass insulated. The floor is carpeted which I've read is best for the misos.

I agree that a good approach for me now would be to get some measurements of frequency responses in my room. I don't have that equipment and will check with the dealer to see what his capabilities are. I think it would also make sense to see if I can get the Majik 140s to compare. They are a sibling to the misos and use the same 2K array, but with rear ported rather than isobarik bass. Maybe they'll have the same musical character but with bass better suited to my room.

Do the MISOs sound wrong with both CD and records?

C.

Hi Joe,

I did hear the Majik 140's myself at the dealership where I bought the Miso's, though not in my own home, they are indeed a very good speaker and incredible value for money in my opinion especially when you compare them with the alternatives available at the same price, at least here in the UK. Thinking back and also reading about  your experiences so far , it is certainly possible that the 140's will suit your situation better. Good luck.

If possible, you might try reinforcing your floor with either pieces of lumber or floor jacks.  The Majiks are powerful enough to make your floor move like the skin of a drum; reinforcement of the floor can lessen or eliminate the effect. 

Christopher_M posted:

Do the MISOs sound wrong with both CD and records?

I'd never characterize anything as being wrong with the misos, just that they have a lot of bass for my room. CDs and vinyl sound equally good. In fact I'd say the misos have made a lot more of my music sound better in either format. Recordings with marginal SQ play nicer on the misos than the Sttafs.

Bob Edwards posted:

If possible, you might try reinforcing your floor with either pieces of lumber or floor jacks.  The Majiks are powerful enough to make your floor move like the skin of a drum; reinforcement of the floor can lessen or eliminate the effect. 

Bob,

While I think you have a valid point and I'm willing to consider basic room treatment, I'm not one to go so far as to modify my house to accommodate my hifi.

I suppose one relevant question is, are you sure it's actually too much bass, as opposed to correct bass with your previous speakers having been light in that regard, theefore just something to which you are not yet accustomed?

What did Linn do with their new Isobarik? Too much bass from that tiny little thing? :0

Old Briks usually do not have a *lot of* bass. If anything they produce dry and tuneful bass.

It's been mentioned already but SN2 might not be controlling the bottom end properly. It would be interesting to try them with a Linn amp Just to see if the problem goes away.

Are you having the same problem with both vinyl and CD?

On Linn's new offerings, there are not much *synergy* left these days with Naim. Linn's amplifier puts out sounds more powerful than mid priced Naim amps and I am certain Linn optimised their speakers for their own amp.

joerand,

As alluded to by IB and Kuma, how do you know the bass is too much?  Of course, it is not good if they are fatiguing.  Have you tried moving them even further from the rear wall?  (Even if this will not be practical, you can learn something).

A lesson I learned recently on listening to bass:  Simply follow the musicians - can you identify every note played on the bass?  Does the base harmonize with the piano and other instruments/voices?  Are they all in rhythm?   So the musical performance should make sense, without you having to "listen" to "bass"  "midrange" or "treble."

What doe your dealer say about pairing with amp's or your bass issues?  Are they familiar with SN2?

If measurements can help, I may be able to help you - but do not discount the value of just listening to music.

Charlie

I don't know the Linn speakers, but I do know the SN2 controls my Dynaudio X38s superbly. It actually sounds very powerful, and definitely not lacking in control.

On paper it would seem that the Dyns would be almost as difficult a speaker to control, having two 18 CM bass drivers and one dedicated 14 CM midrange driver. Maybe not, it's possible the Linns are a very difficult speaker to control. Nothing is a cut and dry when it comes to synergy.

So, based on what I know about the SN2, I personally would put the blame on the room first and then look at the speaker placement next.

CharlieP posted:

If measurements can help, I may be able to help you - but do not discount the value of just listening to music.

Thanks Charlie. I just sent you an email.

joerand posted:

Bob,

While I think you have a valid point and I'm willing to consider basic room treatment, I'm not one to go so far as to modify my house to accommodate my hifi.

Joe - Ha!  I was thinking of my own house, where we simply have a crawl space instead of a full-on basement, where it was easy to get underneath the floor and reinforce it with sections of 4x4 (US measurement).  Made quite a difference for the better - like going from Kans to SBLs

On the other hand, I can't tell you how many funny looks I got from my wife - and still get from friends and colleagues if the subject comes up. 

Hi Joe, I've just had a thought and I'm not trying to be funny but have you got the speakers connected correctly? As you will have seen there are four sets of terminals, the positive cable connection should be plugged into the very top positive socket and the negative cable connection should be plugged into the very bottom negative socket, which is what Linn themselves recommend in the instructions. What the difference would be by deviating from this I don't really know but it was just a thought that came to mind this morning, especially if you have both speaker cable connections plugged into both of the very bottom sockets.