ND5 XS Problems

Its having network discovery problems.  

It would help to understand what/how the network is constructed as your post "This happens both on Wired and Wireless networks for UPNP" is not clear.    ..............   What connects the various parts - ND5 to router & router to NAS (music store).

Is the ND5 & all other parts set to operate on DHCP - if not please reset to this 

Naim support is not from the forum, but by mailing as I remember support@naimaudio.com, but see the topic on support at the top of the forum.

You could try to turn off the router, your nas, the nd5sx, wait for 10 minutes, then turn on the router, wait for it to come online, then turn on nas, finally nd5sx. This will most likely not solve your problem, but try. Witch router are you using?

You could try a hard reset of the router, knowing that you lose all settings you have changed in the router, but if you also can reset the nd5sx to factory defaults, this could solve the problems.

Also what UPnP server are you using, e.g. twonky, asset etc. and where is it situated, on a NAS, PC?

If a NAS have you checked the CPU and RAM usage of it when you are having problems?

does the ND5xs have an FM module, does that work okay?

Are you using Ethernet over powerline?

among these questions and the ones above is most likely the answer to your issues. 

SJB

I have asset running on a pc. No Ram or cpu issues. I don't think it is asset as I have the same problem for tidal streaming.

i use an Asus Rt 66 router and some netgear hubs in my system. It happens over both wifi or hard wired. I am not using powerline. I do not have FM module.

I have other gear like songs connected and no network issues. Real bummer a higher end streamer like this has these issues. Hopefully we can figure it out.....real bummer to get the disconnects while listening.

I believe you have network discovery problems from the iPad to the ND5.  This is probably due to settings in the wireless router.  You need to ensure the UPnP facilities of the router are enabled to allow the network discovery protocols to work properly.  If UPnP network discovery isn't enabled then the iPad will have difficulty connecting reliably and you get the symptoms you describe.

If this is the cause, then it's not a ND5 problem it's just that your network isn't configured correctly to make default DLNA streaming work reliably.

Huge, there is no UPnP discovery setting in the router. UPnP like AirPlay uses SSDP (simple service discovery protocol) which uses a multicast IP address (239.255.255.250) to reach all devices on the subnet /multicast group and allow the participating devices to respond. You don't need a router for this. If Asset is not responding then either it is not seeing the multicast discovery packet or it's not responding. If other devices on the same IP address are responding such as WMP on the same PC, then it is most likely Asset is not responding or there is a port clash with another UPnP media server device on the same IP address preventing Asset from working correctly, or even the PC firewall is somehow preventing Asset from responding.

Simon

Hi Simon, not exactly the router (simplification for those who don't understand that their 'router' is actually several devices in one box)...  In many consumer level WAPs, by default, the firewall between the LAN and the WLAN does block a shed load of ports and this is what needs configuration!

Darron

From the thread I can see a pattern which repeats itself for new streamer users with poorly implemented networks. The good news is it should be fixable, but we need more info.

Without sounding condensending, just because your network functioned before, now with an addition of a farily demanding piece of equipment, it's not up to scratch anymore.

There are some fairly basic settings that need to be applied to your network.

It would help us if you could describe the sequence of network connections at your home or draw a simple diagram and attach it to this thread.  Also please confirm if you router runs a DHCP protocol and if you have a switch.

Adam

PS. Just for you to know - you now have the best network and streaming users on this forum (and I'm not talking about myself) - that's quite a feat  

Ok, not usually a firewall between LAN and wifi, I think for the average punter that would cause complete mayhem and would be a great performance hit.. and of course if there was you would need to enable specifically for each client and not really part of SSDP.

To the OP, it does suspiciously like bad/poor home router functionality, what are you using  and it doesn't feel like Discovery related.

Can you try or borrow an alternate router or an alternate wifi access point such as the Apple Airport Express and plug into your router switchports?

Another idea, does your home router have a setting called something like 'IGMP Snooping' .. it may be called something slightly different.. If you do please ensure its disabled to see if operability improves.

Simon

Simon, all the last three consumer level routers I've looked at functionally selectively block ports between the WLAN and the LAN - in effect, logically a firewall, even if it's physically implemented in a different place.

I also found that the Android app frequently has to re-discover the streamer and server, - periodically the wireless connection from the tablet briefly gets dropped and has to reconnect.  I suspect the Android OS is responsible for this, but it could be external influences - WiFi isn't exactly known for maintaining robust connections.  I also suspect the same may happen with iOS.

Adam Zielinski posted:

PS. Just for you to know - you now have the best network and streaming users on this forum (and I'm not talking about myself) - that's quite a feat  

 

Thank you Adam.

 Indeed, I’ve successfully connected

Virgin Modem/Virgin Router

2 No. PC’s

1 No. Notebook

2 No. Laptops

4 No. Smartphones

1 No. NAS

1 No. SBT (using NAS, PC and internet radio)

1 No. Sony Smart TV

1 No Printer.

As equipment count grew, added 1 No. switch and recently swapped Virgin Modem/Virgin Router for a Virgin Superhub.

AND I DID IT WITHOUT CHANGING ANY SETTINGS ON THE ROUTER OR SWITCH. NOT A ONE, EVERYTHING JUST PLUGGED IN AND WORKED.

 The only problem I did have, which is probably unrelated, is I had trouble copying and pasting files from the PC to the NAS, but I think this was down to sharing rights of the PC

Ok, here is a bunch of information based on the requests from the last few threads. I can't tell from the responses if there is anything specific I should changes on my router settings, but any recommendations would be appreciated.

I've tried two configs (wired and wireless) that all show dropouts when using the following streaming inputs (tidal, upnp, streaming radio).

Wired:

Streamer:
ND5 XS --> Office Hub (NetgearFS105 Switch) --> Central Hub (NetgearGS108 Switch) --> Router (Asus RT-N66U).

- Ip address was set statically (based on recommendation from dealer), just switched back to DHCP

Controller:
iPad --> Wireless Access Point (Ubiquiti Unifi Pro) --> Central Hub (NetgearGS108 Switch) --> Router (Asus RT-N66U)

Music Storage (for Upnp):
Server --> Server Room Hub (Netgear GS105) --> Central Hub (NetgearGS108 Switch) --> Router (Asus RT-N66U)

Wireless:

ND5 XS --> Wireless Access Point (Ubiquiti Unifi Pro) --> Central Hub (NetgearGS108 Switch) --> Router (Asus RT-N66U)

Router Settings:

- UPNP: I do have a router setting on the Asus RT-N66U for UPNP and it is and has always been enabled.

A couple of other things:

- I did find a setting for IGMP Snooping. It was off, and I left it that way.

- My dealer recommended I change the DHCP lease time to 168 hours (instead of 24). Whe I went back to look at the setting, I noticed  168 in there...but, now I'm wondering if the router is actually in seconds (and not minutes) for the renew time. I've changed it to 86400 (24 hours instead of 168) for now to see what happens. I'll google Asus Rt-N66U to see if it is in min or seconds for lease time. 

The DHCP Lease time change did not help. Issue happened again this evening after making these changes while having ND5 XS connected over WiFi. 

I.e. ND5 XS --> Wireless Access Point (Ubiquiti Unifi Pro) --> Central Hub (NetgearGS108 Switch) --> Router (Asus RT-N66U)

This happens while hardwired as well.

If anyone has any ideas on how to potentially resolve, I would appreciate it. I might try another router to see if I can eliminate that from the equation.

As said above your router looks suspect, and your following texts seems to confirm that.

Are you able to get a little Apple Airport Express wifi access point and use that plugged into your router switch port, or even use an Apple Rrouter like a Time Capsule?

given your descriptions above this doesn't look DHCP related... I would hazard a guess it's more fundamental and really without looking at logging its guess work now. This should not be difficult and usually isn't,. Therefore isolate that router, switch ports and wifi access point to see how things improve.

Assus Router -> netgear switch -> Apple Airport Express  -> NDX

                                                                                                     -> iPad

                                                        -> NAS

Ok. My Wifi access points (Ubiquiti Unifi) are fairly  new and I had the problem when using my old wifi access point as well (built into the Asus router, now turned off).

I'll attempt to try swapping out the Asus router first, and go from there. Any recommendation on a good router (doesn't need wifi built in) other than going apple route? It wil connect to a Motorola cable modem to comcast.

I would go Apple unless you know what your doing at a detailed engineering level. ( in which case a Cisco 870 series router is a good device) The Apple Airport series routers are optimised for home use and media use. For consumer home networking they are great. The lattest BT HH5 seems good as well (again optimised for media use) but only relevant if you are a BT customer. 

Unfortunately from my personal experience I would stay clear of consumer Netgear and Assus routers.. They often have a lot of 'bling' type features at the expense of reliability and operability... Basic Netgear switches are fine however and can usually recommend those in basic home setups.

Simon

I assume you've turned off the Wireless Access Point in the Asus RT-N66U?

Although I don't know much about it (and no actual experience), the Ubiquiti Unifi Pro seems to have a LOT of configuration settings.  Are you sure this is configured correctly?

As an experiment, have you tried using the ND5 with wired Ethernet using just the IR remote to control it and turning the iPad off (and any other device on which you have the Naim app running, so it/they can't try to get control of the streamer)?  This will test for issues specifically being caused by the WiFi configuration on the control side of the system.

It's just another potential source of trouble that can be specifically tested and either identified or eliminated before buying more hardware.

I suspect that this won't fix it (but it's zero cost to try) and if you still have trouble then I suspect Simon's solution is the best approach.  If this test fixes it, then one of your Wireless Access Points is the problem (or possibly both if you've not turned off the Asus).

Maybe some decluttering of the LAN is a way to go,  seems a lot of stuff & switches in the data stream & each is a potential failure point.    I have my study/office set up fed by a wireless access point, that feeds wired or wireless in the study.  The audio is simple ethernet NAS-Switch-NDX & branch Switch-Router.    If I have an audio problem (practically never) I never need to consider anything in the study, its completely separate.

I would try another router (wireless hub) as it seems to be struggling with discovery &/or DHCP mngt   (I know peeps who have not had good experiences with Assus)  

Darron

From your network's description it seems too complicated, with potential multiple failure points. Further - your dealer's advice on a static IP address is actually very dangerous. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, DHPC is the only way to go in a domestic network. Lease should be set at 24 hours (I believe this is a standard one).

As Mike-B and Simon have suggested you should really de-cultter your network. Actually best is if you start from scratch.
This is what it should look like (picture courtesy of Mike-B):

My suggestion is that you actually take all your components down, reset each one to a known state (ie factory re-set) and re-build your network along the lines in this diagram. It may seem like a lot of work, but trust me - it will be quicker than trying to diagnose where the actual fault is.

One fundamental point to remember: all devices are connect to a switch by CAT 5 (or higher) network cables. ND5XS must not be connected by more than one leg to a switch.

Adam

I will pile on with another suggestion, taking Adam's suggestion immediately above one step further..  Unplug / disconnect EVERYTHING from the home network.  Restart everything, plug JUST the server pc into the router, get your server software running, and the plug in just the ND5.  See if the front panel of the ND5 sees the server and can play music reliably, using just the front panel controls.  If that works, slowly build up the network and see if there is one thing you can add to it that breaks it.  This has worked for me in the past and let me identify a piece of hardware that, once factory reset, no longer broke things.  Go one step at a time, starting with the pieces you most need for your music.

Good advice from Bart!

I had similar problems with my ND5 and I tried a lot of the things mentioned above without any joy and then two weeks ago I had to take my system down I disconnected every unit carried it all downstairs and reconnected it all up and have had hardly any dropouts since maybe once or twice in two weeks.  I made two changes I now keep the ND5 as far away from any power source as I can and the ethernet cable is a shorter run, wether or not it was just the action ofdeconnecting and reconnecting  I do not know  it is certainly worth a try though.                                                                            

I am pretty sure the culprit is your Asus router. I too had an Asus router (RT-AC68U) and, while everything else in my home connected fine, my Naim streaming setup (UnitiQute 2, Minimserve on Mac Mini) was very finicky. Dropouts were rare but my Naim iOS app would quite frequently not find the UPNP server, even though I could navigate it through the remote for the 'Qute. The 'Qute would also seem to drop the network connection every few days.

Anyway - just replaced the Asus and boom - rock solid and very fast and so far perfectly stable.

FYI, my company had (until now) regularly used Asus routers on our installations. Based on this issue, some issues in our store, and a couple of issues clients have had, we no longer use them. These issues cropped up with both the Asus firmware as well as DD-WRT firmware.