ND5 XS Problems

Last night I replaced the Asus router (with a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X). I will test tonight to see if I get an improvement in drop outs.

I did notice after the upgrade that the ipad no longer sees the ND5 XS at all now (it used to). Are there particular router or access point settings that need to be enabled for this to happen? People mentioned firewall and such, but not with any specificity.

Well Darron - it would seem you have not followed any advice given here, so it's difficult to asnwer your question now.

I'm not surprised it can't see the ND5,  you've replaced your Asus 66 which is a wireless hub (wireless/modem/router) with a simple router.  This is one of my pet hates,  in that the names people (& companies) use for the various LAN parts is not correct or at least descriptive of the function.  It's not all your fault that you've done this but maybe indicative that you need to get some expert help from a local IT service cmpy.

NB:  The router you now have (not to be confused with so called broadband wireless routers) are like a switch but with more capability. They have a higher level managed switch function & can be programmed to direct traffic to MAC addresses across & between networks. They are ideal with more complex or split networks and/or many devices on a network wanting Internet access through one modem.

Darron,

You have an significantly complex network for home use, and have used some network components that require considerable technical knowledge to configure, and yet you are asking some fairly basic questions.  Did someone else advise on your network setup, and configure it initially, if so they have 'locked you in' to them providing support for you.  Either you simplify your network or get your support guy in again.  Several of the respondents here looked at the complex components you have in the network and assumed from that that you had considerable network experience.  Subsequent answers suggest that this initial assessment was wrong and you'd do better with a simpler network solution...

I strongly recommend you follow the advice of Bart and Adam.  Rebuild the network from scratch, starting simple and adding only as much complexity as is absolutely necessary.  Also use unmanaged network components wherever possible.

I would echo Simon's comment - Forget your current setup, it is rather convoluted, get an Apple Airport Extreme and a couple of Airport Express to extend your wireless networks if needed and you are all set. 

Connect your ND5 via an Airport Express' ethernet out, the bandwidth provided by the Airport Express is more than your music requires, I think it is max 5 mbps (theoretically 1.33 mbps) if you stream 16/44.1.

Peter Dinh posted:

I would echo Simon's comment - Forget your current setup, it is rather convoluted, get an Apple Airport Extreme and a couple of Airport Express to extend your wireless networks if needed and you are all set. 

Connect your ND5 via an Airport Express' ethernet out, the bandwidth provided by the Airport Express is more than your music requires, I think it is max 5 mbps (theoretically 1.33 mbps) if you stream 16/44.1.

I too am a fan of the Apple home networking products, and myself use two Airport Extremes, one primary one and one in 'extend the wireless network' mode.  I have always had good luck with my internet service provider's router, however, so the Apple products are used only for establishing a wifi network.  I turn off the router function in the primary one.  But given that the OP is likely having router issues, I definitely endorse using an Airport Extreme as a home router too.

My use of 2 Extremes is probably overkill, I could use a Express to 'extend the wifi network' just as well I guess.

And I have my NDS and Qute2 connected to the primary Extreme by runs of cat-5; I paid to get that installed in my walls so that I do not need to rely on wifi for the music streaming itself -- just for the iPhone and iPads that run the Naim App.

Our Asus 66u has been a little flaky recently, so having read this thread I have bought an AirPort Extreme. What an easy thing to set up - I did it this afternoon- and it's more powerful and faster than the Asus. I didn't know such a thing existed till last week - thanks to all!!

Like Bart I use two Airport Extremes - one is a Time Capsule / Airport Extreme. This starts my whole network and 'defines' it. The other one is a regular Airport Extreme in an extend mode.

The whole network took 10 minutes to set up, including plugging in cables and powering up a Cisco router.

This is what the engine room looks like. Airport Extreme sits on top of the rack - less interference. The blue LAN cable on the right-hand side of the switch runs from the Apple Airport Extreme.

Adam, one of my Airport Extremes actually is a Time Capsule as well.    But my version of a 'server rack' is FAR less organized.  It's out of the way . . . but a big jumble of cables.

Hi Guys,

I'm most certainly listening to and absorbing all the advice.....just working my way through some easy things first (like just swaping out the router) to see if improvements there. I've also been reducing switches/connections. Spent 3 hours last night rewiring to reduce complexity

Swapping our with the Ubiquiti switch did not help help the ND5 XS. It played for a couple of hours when used directly from the ND5 XS panel and then had a number of dropouts.

I'll pick up an apple router to see if that helps, and then from there plug the ND5 XS in directly (with a cable running down the hall) to see if that helps resolve problems of network complexity and work back. That should be the easiest config possible. I'll plug in UPNP server there too.

Thanks for all the tips....I do have a more complicated network with dozens of devices, but never had any issues before so this is a new adventure.

I'll report back with the Apple router in the equation.

Good.. That will help to reduce the variables. I use an Apple Airport Time Capsule for my home/ family router.. It works a dream... yes a few limitations even for home use, but in return I get reliability and the family can reliably use the Internet when I am away on business... and get their Apple devices backed up.. and with some of the recent Apple OS upgrades this has proved useful and saved much angst when one of our MBPro's has required a complete system reset..and rebuild due to certain system corruption errors

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Good.. That will help to reduce the variables. I use an Apple Airport Time Capsule for my home/ family router.. It works a dream... yes a few limitations even for home use, but in return I get reliability and the family can reliably use the Internet when I am away on business... and get their Apple devices backed up.. and with some of the recent Apple OS upgrades this has proved useful and saved much angst when one of our MBPro's has required a complete system reset..and rebuild due to certain system corruption errors

Simon

 

 

Amen!  Between iCloud backups for the iOS devices, and Time Capsule backups for the OS X devices, one should not lose data on an Apple device.  They make it way too easy to backup your stuff!

Got the Airport Extreme installed and setup.

I tried the following config with the ND5 XS Directly connected to Airport but still got a dropout after about 45 min of playing. There is still opportunity to reduce switches below between Server and Airport  so will be doing a direct wire of server into Airport Express once cables arrive tomorrow from Amazon. Makes me think the router is not the problem, but will verify with the simplest config .

Tested:

ND5 XS --> Airport Extreme.  (Using front panel of Nd5 XS to play music (no ipad app))

Music Server --> Switch (Office) --> Switch (Central) --> Airport Extreme

I'll report back tomorrow. I should be able to get to the simplest confit tomorrow and see if resolved (I hope so ).

Darron

Hmm interesting, and you get dropouts the same whether you locally streaming or web streaming such as web radio? and you now have an Ethernet connection between streamer and switch?

just out of interest when the dropouts occur does the buffer display on the streamer reduce to zero? But yes get as much proper Ethernet connection as possible, ESPECIALLY between server / NAS and streamer. This is important, as you are unable rely on wifi to provide a dropout free experience.

Darron Stepanich posted:

Got the Airport Extreme installed and setup.

I tried the following config with the ND5 XS Directly connected to Airport but still got a dropout after about 45 min of playing. There is still opportunity to reduce switches below between Server and Airport  so will be doing a direct wire of server into Airport Express once cables arrive tomorrow from Amazon. Makes me think the router is not the problem, but will verify with the simplest config .

Tested:

ND5 XS --> Airport Extreme.  (Using front panel of Nd5 XS to play music (no ipad app))

Music Server --> Switch (Office) --> Switch (Central) --> Airport Extreme

I'll report back tomorrow. I should be able to get to the simplest confit tomorrow and see if resolved (I hope so ).

Darron

 

Darron - the problem lies in your sequence of components. It should be:

ISP router > Airport Express > Switch > (NAS / Music Server, ND5XS must be connected to a switch).

I do not think you need switches, and you should be able to stream music using wifi between the Airport Extreme and Airport Express. The bandwidth of the Airport Express typically is 65 mbps over 5 Ghz, which is more than enough to stream hires music.

Some network switches can be problematic.

Peter Dinh posted:

I do not think you need switches, and you should be able to stream music using wifi between the Airport Extreme and Airport Express. The bandwidth of the Airport Express typically is 65 mbps over 5 Ghz, which is more than enough to stream hires music.

I don't agree with you Peter. if he has other network components, he needs an unmanaged switch. Streaming over WiFi is less than perfect - a LAN cable will provide the stability.

Agreed that streaming over wifi is less than perfect, especially over 2.4 ghz. I always stream over 5 ghz so that it does not collide with my neighbors' networks, microwaves, whatever that can pollute the 2.4 ghz env, and so far so good, no dropouts, no impact on SQ as far as I can tell.

Even better, stream between 2 Airport Extremes using protocol ac over 5 ghz, the bandwidth should be more than 100 mbps and more stable.

I'm not sure that bandwidth is the cause of problems with streaming over WiFi. I did manage to get my network to a pretty reliable state using an Airport Extreme > Airport Express setup, but moving to all wired (via a switch) was an improvement in sound quality, stability, and speed of connection for me. Then moving from wired Ethernet to optical bought further benefits.

Talking of mains pollution, a certain member of Naim's staff told me he took great pleasure in demolishing an Airport Extreme because of the noise it introduced, so it might be worth trying to keep these well out of the way if you use one.

I installed an Extreme a couple of days ago.... But it's in another room and on a separate consumer unit. It certainly sounds no worse than its Asus predecessor, and is far quicker in use. The Naim app is now lightning fast. 

I'm going to go all hard wired for now until I can isolate the dropout problems I'm seeing with ND5 XS.

In general, I try to hardwire as much as possible for general reliability and speed.

I'm hoping I prove the ND5 XS isn't the problem tonight by having both my upnp server and ND5 XS hardwired into the airport extreme. If that doesn't work, not sure where to go next.

Darron Stepanich posted:

I'm going to go all hard wired for now until I can isolate the dropout problems I'm seeing with ND5 XS.

In general, I try to hardwire as much as possible for general reliability and speed.

I'm hoping I prove the ND5 XS isn't the problem tonight by having both my upnp server and ND5 XS hardwired into the airport extreme. If that doesn't work, not sure where to go next.

Darron - perfect!

just run it like this: your router to Extreme input via a LAN cable.

NAS and ND5XS via LAN cables to the two outputs on the Extreme (there are 4 in total). Do not connect anything else for now.

Adam

As far as I can see, the only problem with wifi is that it can be subject to interference from other wireless devices such as 2.4 ghz cordless phones, etc. It that's an issue you will be bound to notice it and it will not be subtle. So I only use 5 ghz for streaming, also someone here just said that plugging the Airport Extreme to the same electrical circuit can produce some RF noises which can impact the SQ.

Darron, another test whether the ND5 as the source of the problem is to playback from a USB memory stick.

Another question...  Are you using Hi-Res material?  If so are you using firmware 4.3?
Firmware 4.3 has a known dropout issue with Hi-Res; this can be fixed by upgrading the streamer to firmware 4.4.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I installed an Extreme a couple of days ago.... But it's in another room and on a separate consumer unit. It certainly sounds no worse than its Asus predecessor, and is far quicker in use. The Naim app is now lightning fast. 

Not much if any noise from an Aitport Time Capsule router here. It is located next to some very sensitive RF circuitry (which is far more susceptible to noise effects than audio circuitry!) and no noticeable added noise on the spectrum analyser (bands cope). Very different from the average SMPS noise I have seen on some consumer switches etc.

i think some of the mains SMPS noise discussion becomes a bit irrational... and pales into insignificance compared to roof solar panel inverters and even more power-line Ethernet adapters .. and remember a passive linear power supply that is saturating through a DC offset (variable buzzing) creates mains noise as well.... it just its harmonics aren't as strong.