ND5 XS Problems

Darron

I agree with Simon with regards to the testing structure. At some stage you had your streamer working for a period. Then you've added something and dropouts started.

Is it possible for you to replicate the stage before the drop out?

Adam

Clever move by your dealer....once you've got your hands on the NDX he's probably hoping you'll want to keep it.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I thought the issue was dropouts? DHCP is nothing to do with that what so ever.. If DHCP was not working correctly, there would be nothing to dropout from in the first place. If there was a network loop then firstly almost impossible to set up without knowing on a single setup which we should have by now, and the network would almost instantly grind to a halt. The simple ARP initialisations would collapse. Spanning Tree Protocol is usually only used in managed pro network equipment and is used to manage layer 2 resilience/redundancy. The Sonos uses its own implementation of Spanning Tree because of the way it can work with the existing wifi and its own wifi in parallel... so is specific to that product.

it probably is best for the OP to be a little structured, I think we are waiting to hear if the loan NDX works in situ as we have been told everything else has been swapped and / or replaced so is the last remaining item if rthe above posts are accurate.

if the replacement NDX is then also having problems the OP should build a little dedicated seperate network from scratch and add to it until the issues reoccur...

Simon

Hi Simon - I have seen scenarios where if you have multiple DHCP servers then eventually you do get two machines on the same IP, not always straight away, and then when you get duplicate IP's that is when you start to get dropouts as one machine may leave the network. I have then seen this lead to ping pong where the affected systems go up & down depending on who's grabbed the address for a while on the network. 

Am not sure the NDX will prove much (ignoring SQ) as if there is something on the network that happens to be using the ND5 IP by mistake, an NDX with a different one may work perfectly. 

The OP's network seems to have undergone significant change during all of this too which probably adds more confusion. A diagram of network components is probably now required to understand the current topology of switches, access points, internet connections etc to nail down the network config. 

If what I've understood is correct then the internet modem should connect to the Ubiquiti Edge Router X, which in turn should be configured for all the DHCP and NAT work, and then all of the downstream switches should be plugged into the remaining Edge ports. That's probably as simple as this network is going to get without buying yet more hardware! Then wireless AP's can go on the switches in the rooms they need to cover, ensuring all AP DHCP services are off. 

At this stage I would have all devices disconnected and use a tablet to test wifi, and if possible a laptop to test that you can make a physical connection from each switch and get to the internet. I would then get the ND5 and it's DLNA server only up and running to make sure they are behaving with no dropouts. IF that's good, then plug in a laptop to the same switch as the ND5 and see if you can get wireshark running to help spot any problems. 

Then start the tedious task of adding one device at a time slowly to see which one causes the system to break and if it does, try and figure out if it's bad config/firmware etc. 

Ian_S posted: 

Then start the tedious task of adding one device at a time slowly to see which one causes the system to break and if it does, try and figure out if it's bad config/firmware etc. 

We gave him that advice a week ago and while he started down that path he seems to have abandoned it for updates on other hardware, etc etc.  The only way he'll sort this out is to get the most simplest of networks up and running reliably, and then add one device at a time until it fails.  He doesn't want to do this.

Ian - other than the process of DHCP should not assign an address if a device already responds to that address unless this functionality has been over ridden. So you would you need not only multiple DHCP servers but also a faulty DHCP implementation or an implementation of DHCP where Conflict Detection is set to 0 - which would be unusual in most circumstances especially in consumer equipment.

Now - again worst case scenario - if there really was a duplicate IP address then this really affects the ARP cache update process on all the hosts and switches on the network. If there is a duplicate address the ARP process of the younger machine detects this by getting an ARP response from the user already using this IP address  - before there is any higher level traffic on the LAN such as TCP - and the youngest machine will learn there is conflict from the ARP process and should request a unique address. Now if the above is using a badly configured or faulty DHCP this could go in a loop and never get a unique address - and so appears frozen - or ideally the younger host should turn its TCP/IP stack off after a timeout and report an error of some sort.

But either way the established ARP cache as used by the media transfer should be unaffected ... However I am sure there will be some obscure possibility where it is somehow affected - but i suspect this would be very rare - and the drop out would occur when the poorly implemented TCP/IP stack  device with the conflict IP address is being turned on or worken up somewhere on the network... which I would have thought would be apparent to the OP.

So lots of what ifs and assumed faulty devices - and I think there are more basic methods to get to a successful outcome for the OP. Just my two penny's worth.

Hi Guys, Thanks for all the advice and I've been following all the suggestions. I;ve been listening and tirelessly trying to get to the bottom as I really want to resolve this. I wanted to clarify my network setup and current state with the following pic I drew:

Network Link

Per suggestions, I first removed as much complication to the network I could (there are still a few more devices I want to move to the main switch). I then took the network down to the nothing and stood up pieces bit by bit.

a) With just Nain ND5XS and PC (Upnp Server) connected through the main switch everything works fine. All other devices and wifi were disconnected.

b) After trial and error, I discovered that when I add in the Unifi Wireless access points I get the dropouts (after about 40 min or so).

-c) I then progressively added the rest of the network back. With everything connected but the Unifi Aps disconnected, it works fine.

d) If I reconnect the Unifi Aps dropouts start again.

Based on this I believe there is some issue happening between the ND5 XS and the Wifi APs or some device on the Wifi network. I've been getting tech support from Ubiquiti Unifi but no luck there yet. I'm not currently seeing any other device impacted other than the ND5 XS (but I'm also not watching all those actively).

At this point the only remaining things I haven't tried are:

i) Wait until Thursday so I can borrow the NDx and then I can try A-->D with that unit instead of my Nd5 XS

ii) An other suggestion I received was to try and use a managed switch to replace my main unmanaged Linksys. Someone suggested a managed switch that supports STP might reduce eliminate a Broadcast storm if something like that is happening.

iii) Remove the Unifi Wifi Aps and go back to the built in Wifi in the Asus Router. I belive I tried this with the Asus and the Airport Extreme  back at the beginning but I've lost track so going to try that again and see if issue reproduces.

Ok, forget the option ii) for now that really will take you down a blind alley and potentially make it more difficult to find out what is going on.. Other than a managed switch typically provides full diagnostics. Frame storms are often caused (assuming there is not user error in wiring a loop) in a large network when some sort of convergence has happened and devices are all refreshing their ARP caches and MAC tables. A typical home network just won't be large enough to cause a storm and don't usually use resilience. But most specifically I don't believe you have any logs to support this may be happening... but if you have a pcap WireShark file... I'd be happy to look at it for you.

Well done for identifying the Unifi Access point causing the issue.. What do you have connected to it? But yes for now use your Asus router wifi access point.. let's see what the Unifi tech support to you.. Perhaps by turning all its options off and enabling one by one. To Ian's point above, please do check that it s in bridge mode and has no NAT function or DHCP function setup.

if Unifi can't help, and you definitely need a seperate Access Point, the Apple AirPort Extreme devices are popular here and work well.

Simon

The storm was just something someone suggested based on the symptoms. I don't have a trace or anything as I've never used Wireshark before.

I am running out of ports on my switch (with me moving everything more centrally) so I might be in need of a new switch anyway soon so if a web managed switch makes sense I will be in the market for something for ii).

The devices I have connecting over Wifi include:

- Ecobee Thermostat, - iPads, iPhones, - Android Tablet, Phone, - Samsung TV, - Windows PCs, - 2 x Amazon Echos, - Nvidia Shield (Android TV Gamin System), 3 x Foscam IP Cameras, Logitech Harmony Hub, 3 x Sonos (currently all disconnected based on a recommendation from someone because of known network loops)

Ok, and when you use your Asus wifi access point does it work ok? Btw I have no issue with Sonos and loops.. and remember if there is a loop almost certainly your whole subnet will grind to a halt almost immediately. My gut feel is that you have an application on one of your devices that somehow is trying to talk to your streamer as well.. only a hunch...and that will be disproved if all works ok with the Asus.

if you want a managed switch when you expand, then I can recommend Cisco Catalyst 2960 series switches.. You only need the basic IOS version.these allow you to do some multicast optimisations and gives you extensive diagnostics... Many appear used on eBay 

Simon

Darron Stepanich posted:

The storm was just something someone suggested based on the symptoms. I don't have a trace or anything as I've never used Wireshark before.

I am running out of ports on my switch (with me moving everything more centrally) so I might be in need of a new switch anyway soon so if a web managed switch makes sense I will be in the market for something for ii).

The devices I have connecting over Wifi include:

- Ecobee Thermostat, - iPads, iPhones, - Android Tablet, Phone, - Samsung TV, - Windows PCs, - 2 x Amazon Echos, - Nvidia Shield (Android TV Gamin System), 3 x Foscam IP Cameras, Logitech Harmony Hub, 3 x Sonos (currently all disconnected based on a recommendation from someone because of known network loops)

 

Darron, most respectfully, you are a "glutton for punishment."  You are looking for the most complicated solution!

No, don't get managed switches. You now know exactly what the issue is.  If you cannot fix a setting on those wifi access points so that they stop breaking your network, get rid of them and substitute in Apple products.

Or keep torturing yourself.  Some chaps like that sort of thing I hear.  

+1 Bart,  I've given up on this thread,  just reading it is more than enough.   Horse to water comes to mind.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Our Asus 66u has been a little flaky recently, so having read this thread I have bought an AirPort Extreme. What an easy thing to set up - I did it this afternoon- and it's more powerful and faster than the Asus. I didn't know such a thing existed till last week - thanks to all!!

I've just bought one as well, to take over WiFi duties from my BT hub5. Again based on this thread and previous similar debates. Hope its easy to set up and fixes my 'flaky' wifi issues around the house.

pixies posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Our Asus 66u has been a little flaky recently, so having read this thread I have bought an AirPort Extreme. What an easy thing to set up - I did it this afternoon- and it's more powerful and faster than the Asus. I didn't know such a thing existed till last week - thanks to all!!

I've just bought one as well, to take over WiFi duties from my BT hub5. Again based on this thread and previous similar debates. Hope its easy to set up and fixes my 'flaky' wifi issues around the house.

Sorted my network out with an Extreme – works very well.

Darron, the UniFi wireless access points are actually reported to cause intermittent connectivity issues when operating in wireless bridge mode, it is a known issue.

Andrew Everard posted:

pixies posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Our Asus 66u has been a little flaky recently, so having read this thread I have bought an AirPort Extreme. What an easy thing to set up - I did it this afternoon- and it's more powerful and faster than the Asus. I didn't know such a thing existed till last week - thanks to all!!

I've just bought one as well, to take over WiFi duties from my BT hub5. Again based on this thread and previous similar debates. Hope its easy to set up and fixes my 'flaky' wifi issues around the house.

Sorted my network out with an Extreme – works very well.

Well that was easy! AirPort Extreme combined with airport express now delivering strong wifi around the house.

@Bart: I'm trying to be methodical here and looking at any option based on recommendations from others. I haven't discovered any settings that appear to be incorrect on the Unifi APs, but I'm all ears if you have additional suggestions to what has already been shown. Based on my testing last night it doesn't actually appear to be an Unifi AP issue (see below).

@ Simon: I tired option ii) last night and today (using Asus Wifi). Turns out the dropouts still occur when using the Asus Wifi with the Unifi APs disconnected. This makes it appear that it is not the actual APs and is either is one of the following:

iv) A device on the network (over wifi it appears) is causing the issue (like your hypothesis). --> I'm going to try turning the Asus Wifi overnight to see if it is stable in that config (like it was without the Unifi Aps). Any ideas on how to investigate potential apps causing the issue?

v) The ND5 XS is 'sensitive' in certain configs or actually defective--> I'm picking up the NDX tomorrow to compare. Not sure if they using the same networking stack and hence if I will run into the same issues, but will see.

vi) Maybe Asset Server is problematic? I have tried using Asset on different PCs with local music storage previously to rule out the actual server, but haven't tried a different UPNP server software (like Minimserver or my Plex server). I do have multiple installed on my server....I'll try disabling all but minimserver and see how that goes.

Another thing I can't explain is the following logs on my Asus Router:

Aug  3 08:34:42 miniupnpd[444]: upnp_event_process_notify: connect(192.168.1.46:2869): Connection timed out
Aug  3 09:10:20 miniupnpd[444]: upnp_event_process_notify: connect(192.168.1.75:2869): Connection timed out
Aug  3 17:54:57 miniupnpd[444]: upnp_event_process_notify: connect(192.168.1.46:2869): Connection timed out
Aug  3 17:54:57 miniupnpd[444]: upnp_event_process_notify: connect(192.168.1.46:2869): Connection timed out
Aug  3 17:54:57 miniupnpd[444]: upnp_event_process_notify: connect(192.168.1.46:2869): Connection timed out

192.168.1.46 is my PC (Microsoft Surface Book)

192.168.1.75 is my Xbox One

Hi Port 2869 is often used by the ICSLAP protocol in Windows. It appears to be used typically by WMP or ICF. I suspect it's WMP on your Windows PC trying to get some sort of metadata search request or similar and not getting a response back. Unless those time stamps coincide with your dropouts I would tend to ignore at the moment. You are not running your media player on that PC are you (192.168.1.46) ?

as far as seeing what apps may be interfering, without network logging, this would be like a hunt in the dark. Therefore I'd be inclined to create a new wifi SSID password, and bring your wifi devices over one at a time until the issue of dropouts reoccurs and identify the possible culprit by process of elimination.

of course the replacement NDX should show up whether the ND5XS is faulty.

By all means try another media player... If you do have WMP, you can send media from media player directly to the Naim streamer (you can't use the Naim app this way) to see if it plays out ok.

can you get an expert at the dealer to come over and sort it out there? even if it means paying or bribing them.....

Yes - that might be helpful if the dealer has experience with home networks and consumer home network applications - ask the dealer to do :

• Create a new wifi SSID password, and bring your wifi devices over one at a time until the issue of dropouts reoccurs and identify the possible culprit by process of elimination.
• Replace NDX should show up whether the ND5XS is faulty.
• They can also bring a proven little NAS with a media player on to plug into switch nearest your ND5XS

It can be frustrating when errant or premiscuous home applications interfere with other more benign apps on your home network. I remember all the hoha folks were having with Netflix and Naim a few months back. However it sounds like you have a known working state with wifi off - so reenable one device at a time on the wifi and see what breaks it. Should be quite easy and simple to do - albeit a little time consuming.

If the ability to use most of your WiFi devices simultaneously is more important to you than the pain of the dropouts (*), then you can do it the other way.  Turn off one device at a time and wait until either  a) a dropout occurs,  b) 48 hours have passed with no dropout.  This is another way to identify the culprit.

* I'm being pragmatic - music is good (and for many essential long term), but it's not the be all and end all of life!

sjw posted:

can you get an expert at the dealer to come over and sort it out there? even if it means paying or bribing them.....

In my experience, "expert at the dealer" usually is an oxymoron.  I totally respect my local dealer, and they install VERY expensive whole-house solutions in multi-million-dollar homes and condos in my city.  They actually have a small staff dedicated to network installation and maintenance.  Their solution for me when I had these same dropouts was to suggest that I buy a high-end wifi access point system for my home.  I did not take their advice and solved the issue the brute force way, breaking down the network and rebuilding it one device at a time.

Bart - this is the most sensible advice - just rebuild step by step. But I think OP is intent on making his network as complicated as possible, without the necessary skills to support it. He has received advice from some of the most experienced users on this forum.

I fear this thread is no longer to do with ND5XS drop-outs, but more about network support.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Bart - this is the most sensible advice - just rebuild step by step. But I think OP is intent on making his network as complicated as possible, without the necessary skills to support it. He has received advice from some of the most experienced users on this forum.

I fear this thread is no longer to do with ND5XS drop-outs, but more about network support.

Which is why I continue to post in it . . . in the hope of helping others with advice that helped me!  

I guess I'm not surprised that there is more knowledge and experience and actual help here on the forum than from most dealers.  Forum participants frequently know more about the products and how they work than those who sell them.  This is true for cars, hi fi, etc etc etc.  It's a wonderful benefit of the community.

Bart posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Bart - this is the most sensible advice - just rebuild step by step. But I think OP is intent on making his network as complicated as possible, without the necessary skills to support it. He has received advice from some of the most experienced users on this forum.

I fear this thread is no longer to do with ND5XS drop-outs, but more about network support.

Which is why I continue to post in it . . . in the hope of helping others with advice that helped me!  

I guess I'm not surprised that there is more knowledge and experience and actual help here on the forum than from most dealers.  Forum participants frequently know more about the products and how they work than those who sell them.  This is true for cars, hi fi, etc etc etc.  It's a wonderful benefit of the community.

Indeed

And for the same reason I'm still on this thread.

If it's gone to 4 pages of everyone trying to help and obviously causing frustration I'd bite the bullet and get someone in or return the unit!