The 'Naim Sound': Pre-Power...But What About The Loudspeakers-Room?

Well Graeme there are many factors in putting together a great system and yes I agree speaker/room is arguably the most important factor.  

On ores though specifically there was a guy on another forum who had a gorgeous Wadia CDP with volume control which he played straight into a pair of Plinius monos and these giant speakers - can't remember the brand.  Several of us thought the system was a little flat and lacking soundstage and encouraged him to add a pre.  He bought an expensive valve pre - again.cant remember the brand - and it transformed the system.  

Regards,

Lindsay

I'd like to add to the factors having most input to the SQ - besides speaker / room combination - the kind of music. My existing system is perfect for chambre music, renaissance, symphonies (!), but it falls short on e.g. organ music.

I believe that it is not necessarily the case that the pre-amp is having the most influence on the SQ, but it is in my current understanding the best place to completely ruin the music. Low voltage, therefore more sensitive for radiation. Also, the pre-amp has the most connections and especially these connections are error prone. Volume control / balance, all quite riskful.

There is certainly no denying that the speaker/room interaction has the largest effect in sound quality. With this being constant, the components(source or preamp) come next.

I agree that the changes between preamps, say the 202 and 282 are relatively minor when compared to the speaker and room interaction. The degree of differences cannot be accurately quantified. Some may regard the changes between the 202 and 282 to be huge, some may think the differences are negligible. Nobody is right or wrong. I think it is just a matter of interpretation. And for the fact that people sometimes tend to exaggerate. Yes, there may be important changes or improvements, but the basic sound characteristics may not change much.

Back to the "Naim sound" and the topic of the necessity of a preamp when there are high quality DACs such as the Hugo TT that may do the job equally well if not better. I appreciate that you are enjoying the system running the Hugo TT directly into the 250DR. That just goes on to show that the built-in preamp of the Hugo TT is quality. I'm not sure if any other similar DACs in the same price bracket will be able to give a similar level of performance as the Chord.

I would still be interested if someone could compare the Hugo TT / 250DR and the Hugo TT / 282 / HCDR / 250DR.

The Hugo TT and Hugo does NOT have a pre amp as we normally use the term... It has a line output stage with a digital level control... By all means use it to drive an amp, but it is not a preamp controller. Remember the TT can also drive high sensitivity speakers directly

Simon

Good post. Room interaction seems to be so overlooked, it's almost criminal.

I once moved the Ovators S-400 to my living room (from the music room) - didn't work very well. They just seemed unhappy there. Promptly moved them back.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Good post. Room interaction seems to be so overlooked, it's almost criminal.

I once moved the Ovators S-400 to my living room (from the music room) - didn't work very well. They just seemed unhappy there. Promptly moved them back.

I found that taking the time/money to acoustically treat my room allowed much, much more of the accurate sound to be heard from the system and speakers. The sound is now from the kit and speaker drivers which is so articulate and smooth, however I understand many don't have a spare room to play with. That said, plenty of improvement can be made in a standard living room with a few bass traps and panels. It's a revelation akin to upgrading kit to the next level up the chain.

I agree the room/speaker interaction and performance has got to be good if you are to enjoy your system and music. Bad room/speaker setups can have awful distracting resonances and suppressed parts of the audio band that can rob the sound of detail, subtle transients and enjoyment. Over the years of hifi, the room / speaker combo has been by far the hardest part to get right so as to enjoy music for me ....  when it works every clicks into place and the satisfaction is immense.... and when it's bad it's horrid... all with the same electronics.

Sonic clutter within the room is the greatest impediment to replay enjoyment. Clean up the room sonics and any level of gear will sound better. That said, the differing dispersion of speakers will probably be the greatest variable effecting sound in a 'controlled' (all things being equal) room.

This forum often has a 'source first' or 'upgrade boxes' mentality for achieving better sound. Treat the room properly from the get go and everything else will fall into place. That's easier said than done, needn't be expensive, but probably terribly overlooked. I doubt anyone here has a room that would not benefit from some level of acoustic treatment ....

.... or for that matter, a level of electronic room correction

Thanks for the shared views. I should have been clearer in the post title that its Naim Pre/power set against Naim Power/Naim speaker (room) I'm quizzing where the latter has more to say than the former about revealing the 'naim sound' - in my view/experience. 

G

Nice post ... as always I'll meet you in the middle ...

... i.e. source first ...

... but at the same time speakers (room) ...

... and where does coming from both sides lead you to ........ ah the good old pre-amp again

In terms of your question, Graeme, re the Naim sound - I cannot comment as I haven't heard what this is ... I jumped from Technnics/Nad into Naim and have been there ever since.

Allan

... a little more on room conditioning ...

I live in a house with a Chief Executive and do not have a music room - I wouldn't want one anyway since I want to share my music with others in the living room.

... a clue there - its the LIVING room.

My HiFi has to accommodate and work within the parameters of this living space not the other way around.

Hence I have a chair (mine of course) midway facing the speakers with a large window (glass during the day and curtained at night) on one side and on my left is a wall halfway to the right speaker and then the L of the living space away to the right.

Not ideal but it is what it is and I find the only  downside is sometimes a little drifting of the sound stage towards the window wall.

The bottom line is that if that expensive piece of audio blak magic requires me to condition and refurnish my room then it is not for me.

And I sit and grin at the music ... except today which I'll post separately

Allan

Agree on the living room Allan...all life is there in our house - music included!

G

I have always said that in any given room  the speakers make the single largest difference to the character of the sound (also definitely have a large effect on sound quality, but it is the overall character that is most speaker-dependant, and that oncw you get into the realms of reasonable quality amps, then the differences between them are far less than between speakers. Yes there are a thousand and one other considerations, but for me I always had to have a speaker I liked, and the rest followed. As for source first, indeed you can't get out what you don't put in, but neither from the best source can you get out what the speaker won't allow out - though that is more a matter of sound quality than sound character.

To the OP, it appears you've disproved that the preamp (or Naim amplification) is essential for what you consider to be the Naim sound, so it would be ivery interesting to see what you think if you omitted even the NDX, using, if you have one available, a Mac Mini or any other Mac, running Audirvana (free trial available) in ultimate quality mode, no isolator required as TT has good isolation. I suspect you'll find that the Naim sound is still there due to the sonic character of the S-400s, though it seems they are not to everyone's taste.

GraemeH posted:

Thanks for the shared views. I should have been clearer in the post title that its Naim Pre/power set against Naim Power/Naim speaker (room) I'm quizzing where the latter has more to say than the former about revealing the 'naim sound' - in my view/experience. 

G

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Room is common in both set ups, which would deliver, or retain more of that Naim Sound (PRAT) ?

Hugo/250 DR vs Hugo/252/250 DR        Room & Speakers being common. 

Just Checking GraemeH, am I on Track ? 

Of course, your view/experience! 

Allante93! 

Same room Allante93 but a move from NDX/Ndac/555PS 282/SCAP 250.2 to NDX/Hugo TT 250DR.

Both into S400.

G

GraemeH posted:

Same room Allante93 but a move from NDX/Ndac/555PS 282/SCAP 250.2 to NDX/Hugo TT 250DR.

Both into S400.

G

Got You, But No Pre-Amp!

Allante93 posted:

GraemeH posted:

Same room Allante93 but a move from NDX/Ndac/555PS 282/SCAP 250.2 to NDX/Hugo TT 250DR.

Both into S400.

G

Got You, But No Pre-Amp!

Correct. I only have a single source so no need.

G

GraemeH posted:

A few threads are speculating on the necessity of a naim preamplifier with a naim power-ampl.........

Effectively I now use no pre (An NDX to Hugo TT direct) but the 'naim sound' remains completely intact to my ears - and is the best I've ever heard running a 250DR into Ovator S400. These latter two, and the room, are a match made in heaven.

Pitch, Rhythm & Timing...It's all there and more.

Definitely still a 'naim sound' in my experience.

G

PS - I never realised before that the S400 are actually this good!

Same Room

Same Speakers

Exchange/Upgrade 250.2 with 250 DR

Subtract 282

Subtract Ndac

Subtract 555PS

And it's the best you ever heard!

Be careful, you're treading in deep water!

Enjoy your Music!

Allante93!

Another couple of related theories are

Theory A:   no component can add to the quality of the sound (all components create distortion and other non-idealities that subtract from quality)

Theory B:   in absolute terms, no component should add anything to the sound, but all do.

In both cases the theory specifies that any alteration of the sound wave from that encoded in the source material is undesirable.

Therefore the best result is obtained by balancing the inevitable defects to the listeners expectation; and the sound can be ruined by any specific component or by any compromised interaction between any of the components (including the room).  Thus any or all parts of the chain can cause problems, including the interaction of components.

Amongst other functions, pre-amps control the electrical interaction of source components and power amps.

Allan Milne posted:

 

... a little more on room conditioning ...

 I live in a house with a Chief Executive and do not have a music room - I wouldn't want one anyway since I want to share my music with others in the living room.

... a clue there - its the LIVING room.

My HiFi has to accommodate and work within the parameters of this living space not the other way around.

Hence I have a chair (mine of course) midway facing the speakers with a large window (glass during the day and curtained at night) on one side and on my left is a wall halfway to the right speaker and then the L of the living space away to the right.

Not ideal but it is what it is and I find the only  downside is sometimes a little drifting of the sound stage towards the window wall.

The bottom line is that if that expensive piece of audio blak magic requires me to condition and refurnish my room then it is not for me.

And I sit and grin at the music ... except today which I'll post separately

 Allan

I have wanted to bring this up but didn't want to spoil the party. Now that you have brought this up, I will expand a bit on this but will try not to be too long-winded.

The room. There isn't any doubt the listening room is very important, the most important "component" alongside placement of speakers. Room acoustics will make or break the system, more so in smaller listening spaces in my experience. However, not everyone has the privilege to accommodate a dedicated room just for the hifi system, partially or fully treated with professional room treatment products.

Now, comes the most important aspect. In reference to your remarks in bold, I share your same sentiments. For the record, I have had my system in a dedicated room solely for music and Home Theater on a big screen projector, fully treated, for about 5 or 6 years. To cut a long story short, the hifi room is now defunct, converted to a normal bedroom. The main system is now in the living room.

The main reason of the change is I do not like the "feel" of the room, sitting all alone in the room facing the system in front of me and the walls around me. There is a feeling of detachment to the outside world. There is no life in the room although music may sound great. Of course, it's all horses for courses.

In the (large) living room, I can move about and work on other chores. I can be at other areas of the house and nice music will still be playing in the background. When I am at the kitchen, I can hear nice music playing. Most importantly, I am not restricted to the system ie. not obliged to be at the sweet spot for prolonged hours. And yes, to share good music with others in the house.

As for sound quality, I wouldn't say the system in the dedicated room produces a *better* sound. The sound presentation is just different. There are compromises with both setups, though I prefer the presentation of the system in the large living room. There is a "live" feel with music in the living room. Some may regard this as colouration, but I like the feel of this "coloured" live sound in the living room as opposed to a more controlled sound in the small dedicated room.

Of course, the music has to sound reasonably good in a non-dedicated room without much room issues. With a bit of effort I think that can be dealt with. There has to be a good compromise and balance with most things in life.