Why a streamer with a UnitiServ?

I've always understood that the US sounds best when streaming over a network, which is what it is primarily designed to do. As you already have a 202 I'm not sure why you have a V1 as well. Streaming to an NDX should sound a lot better. In fact, as you have a nas, you could ditch both the US and the V1 and get an NDX. 

Sorry HH but I don't get this - the US does not have a DAC in it so can't be connected to the 202 directly.

It's main function is as a server with built-in storage and ripping,thus it serves rather than streams; ... but it also has the neat trick of having a direct digital out which is, in my system, connected to the DAC.

That's my point; I could have the US serving the network and then a streamer (NDX or whatever) either streaming to the 202 directly or to my V1 but in my mind the direct digital connection from the US to the V1 should be better than Us>ethernet>streamer>V1 ... or should it.

... On reflection, perhaps the SQ might be better in the latter case since the US could then be situated up in the bedroom where the NAS and router live, theoretically taking away a noisy component from the analogue audio components in the Fraim ???

The NAS is used, as well as storing hi-res, as the backup for the US - and this NAS backup is then also accessible to my Sonos for multi-room (neat) #2.

I like controlling the system using the NServ app and don't have to touch the Naim app.

Allan

Allan

The point Allan is, that UnitiServe is a very good UPnP server.
As a digital transport, via it digital out to a DAC, it is just average. So connecting it directly to a DAC V-1 you of course do get a sound, but that's not what it was really designed to do.

To really hear what digital streaming (based on UnitiServe) on a local network is about, requires a rather simple set up.
UnitiServe works as a streamer, connected via LAN to a switch.
NDX (or any other Naim streamer) is connected to the same switch. NDX is connected via it's analogue out to a NAC (say NAC 202).

It's not the cheapest solution, but best for sound quality. 

NDX has a good power supply and a very good DAC.

Hi Adam,

Thanks for this and, yes I understand all that ... but my point is still that this does not explain WHY the network approach is better in some posters' opinion in terms of SQ. If they are hearing a difference then my question is why?

Digital audio is just 1's and 0's with the DAC V1 being used to convert the samples into their approximate anologue equivalent. Whether these bits are coming directly from the US or via a streamer across the network should be irrelevant except for any timing noise issues that may be propagated. Common sense tells me (... yes I know - when has common sense ever had anything to do with HiFi that the shorter direct connection from US to V1 should be "better" than throwing these bits all along a network with all the protocol management along the way ...

... unless the NDX is a better DAC than the V1?

... or unless the "noise" of the US sitting amongst the analogue audio components is affecting the SQ?

... or what am I missing ... ?

Allan

Hi Allan,

To be frank I cannot really explain why, as I don't have sufficient technical expertise.
When choosing my equipment I have run extensive tests at home.

For whatever reason connecting US directly to my resident nDAC made it sound just average.
I've tested the following combinations:

1. US directly into nDAC
2. ND5XS connected to nDAC, US connected to LAN
3. NDX connected to nDAC, US connected to LAN

Option 3 was a clear winner, followed closely by option 2. 
Optioin 1 was quite far behind the other two.

My conclusion is that bits are not bits, quality of digital transport is of paramount importantce.

Adam

I've just bought a used DC1 cable, partly to satisfy my own curiosity about Unitiserve sound quality using local playback rather than network streaming. Haven't got round to hooking it up yet......

Aside from sound quality issues, Naim streamers have better iRadio than the US, and the Naim app is arguably much better than the N-Serve app. They also support Tidal and Spotify if web streaming is your thing, have an optional FM module, and have digital inputs etc.

Putting your US on a network enables multiple devices (obviously including Naim streamers) to see it and play from it.

Hi Adam,

I don't know when you ever find the time to actually listen to any music given the testing you do

Your findings are very interesting and make my point - I don't understand it !!!!!

As a software engineer, I just can't accept that bits are not just bits !!!!

... but then I also can't ignore your findings ...

Is there anyone out there who can explain it?

Very confused

Allan

PS Like you, I love the US; so simple, convenient and effective.

PPS ... wrt to your dead US society topic, mine has worked faultlessly since purchase 3 years ago.

I found that streaming from a nas was better than streaming from a unitiserve. Who knows why? Life's too short to worry about why and I'm happy to go by what works best in practice. Why does wav sound better than flac? Why do Ethernet cables sound different? Goodness knows. 

Cris - will be very interested in your findings with the DC1 cable - I don't even know what cable I have, the dealer just connected it for me!

I find the IRadio on the US works fine and like the NServ app although I've never tried the Naim ap since I don't have anything to use it with ... I also need it to be accessible with Voice Over on IOS.

Allan

HH - ... but I'm retired now and have the time to want to know why

Allan

Adam Zielinski posted:

The point Allan is, that UnitiServe is a very good UPnP server.
As a digital transport, via it digital out to a DAC, it is just average.

Agree with the first point but disagree with the second. 

Certainly, using the UnitiServe as a UPnP server (with a linear power supply) provides a very good benchmark to aim for when using the Serve directly into a DAC. In this latter mode, using a well-designed linear power supply and a top-notch S/PDIF cable allows the UnitiServe to shine as a true high-level digital source.

I'm using mine into the Resonessence Mirus Pro DAC, which lifts the performance easily into NDS territory.

Jan

Allan - to your point on testing. It was very tiring.... And I actually don't enjoy testing new components. Too impatient for that Luckily that is over for now and I can actually enjoy the music.

I dread a moment when I will start auditioning speakers for the living room. Luckily one of the fellow forum members (NigelB) managed to guide me to a sensible point with regards to my current speakers.

So all is quiet on the Eastern front - the only sound is music

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

The point Allan is, that UnitiServe is a very good UPnP server.
As a digital transport, via it digital out to a DAC, it is just average.

Agree with the first point but disagree with the second. 

Certainly, using the UnitiServe as a UPnP server (with a linear power supply) provides a very good benchmark to aim for when using the Serve directly into a DAC. In this latter mode, using a well-designed linear power supply and a top-notch S/PDIF cable allows the UnitiServe to shine as a true high-level digital source.

I'm using mine into the Resonessence Mirus Pro DAC, which lifts the performance easily into NDS territory.

Jan

A few years ago I considered the Userve to DAC approach with the aim of saving on the cost of a streamer (as I owned an nDAC at the time). Conversations with my dealer and Naim, plus listening at the dealer confirmed that streaming was the way forward. The quote from Naim was that the digital out on the US "is not of audiophile quality".

Keith

KRM posted:

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

The point Allan is, that UnitiServe is a very good UPnP server.
As a digital transport, via it digital out to a DAC, it is just average.

Agree with the first point but disagree with the second. 

Certainly, using the UnitiServe as a UPnP server (with a linear power supply) provides a very good benchmark to aim for when using the Serve directly into a DAC. In this latter mode, using a well-designed linear power supply and a top-notch S/PDIF cable allows the UnitiServe to shine as a true high-level digital source.

I'm using mine into the Resonessence Mirus Pro DAC, which lifts the performance easily into NDS territory.

Jan

A few years ago I considered the Userve to DAC approach with the aim of saving on the cost of a streamer (as I owned an nDAC at the time). Conversations with my dealer and Naim, plus listening at the dealer confirmed that streaming was the way forward. The quote from Naim (according to the dealer) was that the digital out implementation on the US "is not of audiophile quality".

Keith

A point to beware of for the OP, about comparisons of the NDAC fed by the US, is that the NDAC's SPDIF inputs are known to be sensitive what is upstream (unlike the V1).

My comparison of a bare NDX with a V1 showed no difference in SQ.

Jude

Thanks Keith - a little clearer but what does "audiophile quality" mean in the context of bits - that is still the crux of the issue !

Jude - interesting; again seems to beg the question of what being sensitive to the upstream actually means !

It may be that I have a total misunderstanding of what a DAC does due to my naive application of my years of software systems design and implementation to a hardware component. I tend to think in terms of functional behaviour and assume (the mother of all mistakes!) that the hardware will reflect that behaviour ...

... so my understanding is that a DAC fundamentally takes in bits as input; assumption is that this is a digital activity of just getting those 1's and 0's in to the internal buffer where all the great DSP stuff and DAC conversion can then take over.
... so how can what is upstream affect this as long as the right bits come into the DAC in the right order?

I know this might seem a little esoteric or even nurdie to some but fundamentally an understanding of this then informs what we might want to do and what would be effective in the upstream digital chain of components in terms of maximising SQ within some defined budget.
I don't question sonic differences reported by others but the human brain is weird and complex when it comes to making comparisons with psychological, environmental and cognitive contexts all affecting our perceptions and, as a scientist/engineer, I would like to have a sound (pardon the pun) basis for my purchasing decisions.
I know ... you are all shouting "trust your ears" - but I don't trust them since I understand the complexities of comparison and how easy we are to trick.
Personally, I am therefore a bit of a cynic in terms of the digital pipeline upstream of the DAC but hear what others are saying and want to be convinced one way or the other.
Naim - any white papers (I've read the one on the DAC V1 buffering)?

Allan

Allan Milne posted:

 

 

...

As a software engineer, I just can't accept that bits are not just bits !!!!

... but then I also can't ignore your findings ...

 

...

Bits are bits, but there's a shed load of muck that comes along for the ride with the analogue carrier.  This includes both noise and jitter (i.e. analogue frequency modulation of the switching edges).

The noise can (and does) break through into the analogue signal.

The HF components of the digital signal can (and do) break through into the analogue signal (and all the digital processing creates more of this, all coupled to the analogue stages through the PSU).

The low frequency components of the jitter can (and do) modulate the emptying rate of the buffer and so break through into the analogue signal.

Bits are bits, but there a lot else in the digital connection than just the bits.

KRM posted:

A few years ago I considered the Userve to DAC approach with the aim of saving on the cost of a streamer (as I owned an nDAC at the time). Conversations with my dealer and Naim, plus listening at the dealer confirmed that streaming was the way forward. The quote from Naim was that the digital out on the US "is not of audiophile quality".

Hi Keith,

That quote pops up periodically on the forum, but it does not coincide with my experience. Martin Colloms has also tested the US in this mode and found the digital output to be of very high quality (link). I've compared the UnitiServe's UPnP and S/PDIF playback over the years through the UnitiQute, UnitiLite and the NAC 272. In all cases, I could not reliably tell the difference. But, as always, we all hear things differently...

The cynical side of me might think that if I were a dealer, I would be inclined to steer the client towards a streamer (with many upgrade options down the road) than a DAC (with fewer upgrade options). 

If the OP prefers to maintain the flexibility of a separate DAC (without a streaming client), then the direct playback (via S/PDIF) route is certainly a worthwhile option.

***

Allan, if you dig into the technical aspects of different methods for conveying digital data into a DAC, you'll find pros and cons for each. I gave up trying to fathom which is technically best, because, as always, it comes down to implementation, as Huge alludes to above. I've heard greatly engaging music from USB, S/PDIF and UPnP. And then there's I2S.

Your ears alone are the best judge of the sound that fits.

Jan

I too used an NS01 as my 'renderer' for many years, and an excellent job it did too. Before buying I did an extended comparison at home with the US, they did vary in sound and I could imagine someone preferring the US. I do not think the spdif output of either is in any way sub par. The NS01 replaced an audio server (+ MTech convertor) I had built.

Having now moved to a microRendu I did compare streaming from NS01 with my Synology, using both Minimserver and Synology Media Server. All three sounded different, but overall in my current setup I wouldn't say that any one stood out as a clear winner.

M

Allan Milne posted:

Cris - will be very interested in your findings with the DC1 cable - I don't even know what cable I have, the dealer just connected it for me!

 I find the IRadio on the US works fine and like the NServ app although I've never tried the Naim ap since I don't have anything to use it with ... I also need it to be accessible with Voice Over on IOS.

I've had a quick play with this, and first impressions are that UPnP streaming into NDX sounds better than local SPDIF connection direct to a digital input on the NDX. The differences were not huge, and the SPDIF connection was by no means poor, but there was a slight harshness in the upper/mid (female vocals, percussion) that made me want to reduce the volume a touch. Streaming also revealed a little more of the tone and texture of each instrument, and somehow I felt more drawn into the music, less inclined to analyse because I just wanted to listen end enjoy it.

I also had a very quick listen to iRadio (Radio Paradise 320) and there was less to tell between them. I think the extra harshness on SPDIF made the music sound a bit more punchy and exciting on that particular track, but maybe that's not always a good thing.

I suppose the question is weather or not the cost of an NDX is worth it for you, and also, weather or not that cash would be better spent on a DAC upgrade (NDAC, Chord?) Would you use the additional functions of a streamer? Will the Naim app work with Voice Over? Do you even want to upgrade, it wasn't part of your OP!!!?

Another option you could explore if you're considering a streamer is a 272. I'm not sure if it's an upgrade to what you have now; I thought the NDX sounded better, but it would neaten up your system quite a bit, as you could lose the V1, 202, NAPSC and Hicap.....and even the Unitiserve if you used your NAS instead. 4 or 5 boxes replaced by one (plus optional PSU). Just a thought....  

Now we're getting to it

Thanks Huge and Jan, makes sense!
... all we have to do is relate those aspects to specific components and interconnects !!!

M and Chris - interesting!
I would probably be drawn to a more warm than harsh sound too.

No plans for upgrade immediately (I still have a 250DR and Krystal to enjoy first!) but it is certainly on my radar for the future and I am trying to get a handle on where I will be looking.
The N272 (and whatever else is coming ...) makes life even more complicated as we now have to compare its different integrated behaviours with those of seperates.
Low box count is not an issue, SQ is.

Big sigh ... time to get back to my 250DR (Krystal coming tomorrow) ...

Allan

Allan Milne posted: 

As a software engineer, I just can't accept that bits are not just bits !!!!

This is the beginning and the end of your issues.  As a "software engineer," you've forgotten that "software" runs on "hardware."

@Allan

"Bits are bits" is a very scary wormhole that this forum gets sucked into from time to time.  As regards digital audio, all that matters are data and timing .  For example, CDs contain 16-bit samples which were recorded at 44,100 times a second.  As long as the DAC input gets the right data at the right time that's the best you can do in the digital domain.  In practice though there is noise (jitter) in the DAC input clock signal which means the samples aren't 1/44100 seconds apart so the DAC's output isn't true to the original recording

Most modern DACs are asynchronous - they use their own internally-generated very low jitter clock signal which means that the jitter from the source device is irrelevant. 

Many users on this forum have their own theories as to why different digital sources sound different with a particular DAC or streamer.  Some of these are mentioned above and include RFI coupling of jitter from the source device, noise coupling through the mains, the fact that digital data signals aren't true square waves etc. etc.  I think you'll find as many of these theories as you care to look for.  Whether they are based on experiments or stand up to close examination is another matter.

Allan Milne posted:

 

Cris - will be very interested in your findings with the DC1 cable - I don't even know what cable I have, the dealer just connected it for me!

 

I find the IRadio on the US works fine and like the NServ app although I've never tried the Naim ap since I don't have anything to use it with ... I also need it to be accessible with Voice Over on IOS.

 

Allan

Both apps are accessible with a few things that needs to be fixed, more on the Naim app than the n-serve, only a few unlabelled buttons. the big advantage of using the  server with local spdif out is that you can use the desktop client to control it from windows. Again there are a few small issues with the dtc but it is the best control app for playing music I have used.

Claus

What is better on the Naim app iRadio than   on the servers. I have found no issues, it may be the BBC streams but they are not available outside UK anyway.

Iradio has the problem that they do not seem to update demand programs much. I have many demand programs from the Danish  National Radio dr, that is not available either on the server or the qb.

Claus