Super Lumina Speaker Cables (again)

I think you are missing the irony along the way.... All I have said is that the dealer's suggestion that Derek's £3,000 Linn speakers are incapable of showing up the effects of Super Lumina cables is moronic. Doing a Super Lumina home demo for a couple of hours and expecting a potential buyer to draw a rational conclusion is also moronic. Not looking carefully at Derek's setup while actually in the house and identifying that he was using filtered power blocks (which of course he bought with every good intention) and helping him to hear what the impact of their removal might be is lazy or negligent. But if everyone wants to say that the dealer is doing a great job, then that's fine. But please explain why they are doing a great job using real words rather than +6. On the basis of the evidence so far, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. The best thing Derek can do is to find a dealer who knows what they are doing, and genuinely has his best interests at heart. 

Michael_B. posted:

"HH you give good advise on this forum, but occasionally you let yourself down with your asinine comments."

I think that HH can be forgiven a little tetchiness in the aftermath of his accident, no?

Don't worry Mike, it's not the bump on the head that's making me tetchy, in fact I've rarely been happier or more chilled out. What is making me tetchy is that Derek is clearly a lovely man who has suffered terribly and is now looking to his music to put some joy in his life. Yet the dealer to whom he has turned is letting him down and failing in their role of helping him to get the best from his system to let him enjoy is music. It also makes me tetchy that people are springing to the dealer's defence when all the evidence so far points to ineptitude rather than competence. If calling a spade a spade is judged by some to be asinine, then that's fine. 

If when he reads this Derek would like me to desist from posting further on this thread, he is most welcome to tell me. The only reason I'm posting as I am is because I care. 

Derek - please don't take any of my comments as 'dissing' Russ Andrews' products. I've bought many over the years, still use some, and think the company gives excellent customer service.  It's just that the mains filtering and clamping doesn't work well with Naim kit. Naim and their dealers are very clear about this and I've always followed that advice.

Anyway, it sounds like you are making good progress in optimising your system.

Mike

For goodness sake, Derek said earlier the blocks are in a difficult place to see, let alone get to. The dealer could have been on an off day. You don't know what they were dealing with. He expected to just go in and demo something obvious, but suddenly had to start diagnosing what's going on in a system with seemingly unfamiliar components. You don't know the dynamics of the situation at the time. You have no idea how the conversation went, nor the actual language used or the tone it was used in, which could easily have been far less hard hitting than as reported here due to the nature of the written word against the spoken one.

Seems like you're taking an awfully hard line on a situation about which you know very little, and all you want to do is a bit of dealer bashing!

Frank.

Yup, I've been caught out by the unexpected here.  I once spent hours trying to figure out why a Naim system I had just set up wasn't doing what it should.  It's easy to just put it down to being fresh and cold and hope it improves with warm up. But I didn't have the luxury of the few days this might take, as the music evening was looming so as a last resort I started moving curtains and furniture only to find a hidden mains conditioning device that I hadn't spotted earlier.  It wasn't even plugged into the system but still its removal was revelatory - the system suddenly began to sing as it should.  

Whatever the ins and outs of this particular situation, I have to put in a word in defence of Geoff and Pete at Acoustica. I have moved around the country a lot with work and they are by far and away the best Naim dealer I have dealt with both in terms of advice and service. If there is a problem you can take it as read that it will be sorted properly.

Richard Dane posted:

Yup, I've been caught out by the unexpected here.  I once spent hours trying to figure out why a Naim system I had just set up wasn't doing what it should.  It's easy to just put it down to being fresh and cold and hope it improves with warm up. But I didn't have the luxury of the few days this might take, as the music evening was looming so as a last resort I started moving curtains and furniture only to find a hidden mains conditioning device that I hadn't spotted earlier.  It wasn't even plugged into the system but still its removal was revelatory - the system suddenly began to sing as it should.  

Richard - I remember you comment from another post.
Quick question: was it an active conditioner or a simpler type (distribution block with filters)?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I think you are missing the irony along the way.... All I have said is that the dealer's suggestion that Derek's £3,000 Linn speakers are incapable of showing up the effects of Super Lumina cables is moronic. 

One might be slightly out of order criticising Derek's dealer for some things, but blaming his speakers because he doesn't like the SL cables in his system is really not cricket, to put it mildly, and is indefensible.

Michael posted:

Hi Derek you seem to be edging closer to the root of the problem and you are reaping rewards along the way with what you already have and are familiar with and I admire your systematic approach and taking your time. By all accounts you have opened the window on your system and music is now flowing in a way like never before. It will certainly be worth your while having a second listen to the SL cables and you should borrow them for a week and leave them in. Then go back to the NAC A5. You will then be in a good position to make a judgement on whether they are worth purchasing for your set up. If you decide to stick with what you have then this exorcise has been a very worthwhile experience and has enabled you to enjoy a higher level of musical satisfaction from your set up and the changes you have made,

+1 for the Musicworks block. I use a Relex Lite in my system for the boxes that do not have their own wall socket. If you can feed your power amp directly from the wall rather than from a block I have found this to be beneficial. I have a dedicated spur feeding an unswitched MK double socket, The NAP 500  uses one of the sockets and the Musicworks block uses the other and the rest of the system plugs into this apart from the Radikal which I have plugged in to the normal house ring main. One extra cost, I do use a Powerline to feed the Musicworks block again this works very well but that could come later.

Sensible advice there Michael.

Blimey! Having just stepped back into the arena, it would appear that there's been quite a battle raging at times during my absence, so just to put the record straight to begin with. I have learned to trust Geoff and Pete at Acoustica implicitly since I first met them five years ago this month and the quality of the service accompanied with their professional but very friendly approach has exceeded anything I have experienced in the past and are respected by many enthusiasts including those forum members who know them and have quite rightly leapt to their defence. Bearing in mind that they did not supply my speakers in the first place and therefore wouldn't be totally familiar with the reluctant sound and I hadn't considered there may be a 'problem' within my system as it evolved, there would be no reason for them to assume that I had a 'evil' mains conditioning units hidden away somewhere and start poking around my home like some sort of Hifi police.

Anyway, I have spoken to Geoff this morning and Pete is now returning on Friday to start again and will also be accompanied by a 'trusted' mains distribution unit. It would have been sooner but unfortunately I am a little tied up this week with my duties as executor for my oldest and best friend up here who sadly passed away prematurely earlier this year due to a fatal and unexpected heart attack, he was a month younger than myself and we had known each other since our teenage years. I am now feeling rather confident that the results from the next episode will prove to be far more fruitful and I will let you know how things develop in due course but in the meantime thank you to those who have contributed to this thread (including HH) for their support and understanding and conveying their own experiences. I will probably get chance to 'dip in' occasionally over the next few days but possibly not the time to log in and make postings.  

Sorry, that should read "resultant sound" and not "reluctant sound" ! 

The spell checker on my iMac seems to try and be too clever on occasions!

Adam Zielinski posted:

Richard Dane posted:

Yup, I've been caught out by the unexpected here.  I once spent hours trying to figure out why a Naim system I had just set up wasn't doing what it should.  It's easy to just put it down to being fresh and cold and hope it improves with warm up. But I didn't have the luxury of the few days this might take, as the music evening was looming so as a last resort I started moving curtains and furniture only to find a hidden mains conditioning device that I hadn't spotted earlier.  It wasn't even plugged into the system but still its removal was revelatory - the system suddenly began to sing as it should.  

Richard - I remember you comment from another post.
Quick question: was it an active conditioner or a simpler type (distribution block with filters)?

Adam, I'd rather not mention the make on here - all I'll say is that it looked like a silvery power amp on the rack, which is why I had initially overlooked it.  I have no idea what went on inside the box but I was quite shocked at how expensive it was to buy...

Richard Dane posted

Adam, I'd rather not mention the make on here - all I'll say is that it looked like a silvery power amp on the rack, which is why I had initially overlooked it.  I have no idea what went on inside the box but I was quite shocked at how expensive it was to buy...

Thank you Richard - all clear. I think I know the type you're referring to.

"+1 for the Musicworks block. I use a Relex Lite in my system for the boxes that do not have their own wall socket. If you can feed your power amp directly from the wall rather than from a block I have found this to be beneficial. I have a dedicated spur feeding an unswitched MK double socket, The NAP 500 uses one of the sockets and the Musicworks block uses the other and the rest of the system plugs into this apart from the Radikal which I have plugged in to the normal house ring main. One extra cost, I do use a Powerline to feed the Musicworks block again this works very well but that could come later".

Michael's arrangement works very well for me too. One tends to forget, living with a good quality (unadorned!) mains distribution unit and Powerlines, just how effective they are in getting things right up-front.

As Richard said; it wouldn't be the first time that a mains mangling device has thrown a spanner in the works. It could explain a lot.

Good luck with your investigations Derek.

John.

Thanks John & J.N. 

Thought I would log in again while I've got chance just to address another couple of points in an attempt to cover all bases. Frank was quite right in highlighting that the dynamics of the situation could have influenced the thought processes and I do genuinely accept that HH has my best interests at heart and I thank him for that and the compassion which he displayed by recognising the fact that music is even more important to me nowadays (i.e. since losing my darling wife to cancer so traumatically).

On the day of the home demo Pete arrived later than planned due to previous demo's he had been conducting with another to perform after leaving mine, so there were some time constraints to a degree. During the following days Geoff was manning the shop back at Chester while Pete was fully committed carrying out installations and demos in different locations and in the meantime I was sort of pressing them for some conclusive thoughts on the matter but of course Geoff was waiting to catch up with Pete properly to hear first hand of his findings so it could be discussed through logically and sensibly. Saturday afternoon had arrived and they had already promised to phone me back before the end of the day despite the shop being very busy which obviously would make it even more difficult to discuss properly and on the evidence which was available, they probably just rushed to the wrong conclusion. Now, if I had agreed and decided yes, it's the speakers which are to blame, I would have investigated potential alternatives with them and in doing so, it would have led to Geoff or Pete coming round to my home again with speakers that they would know quite intimately and realised that they didn't sound as they should when connected to the rest of my system and I'm sure would have provoked further investigations and thus revealing those 'evil' mains conditioning devices. It may sound to some who are more cynical and unforgiving than I that I'm just making excuses for them but I'm just telling you the way it was and obviously with Frank being in the trade he is probably quite aware of all sorts of scenarios which could prevail in different circumstances.

By the way, I do have my NAP300DR and the two Supercap DR's plugged directly into the double unswitched  wall sockets and all the source components plugged into the Powerblock without the Megaclamp as a compromise until Friday.

PS. I have now deleted the offending items from my system on my profile page as they were leaving a nasty taste in my mouth!

Derek, glad to see that you are getting to the bottom of the problem I can also vouch for the MusicWorks Reflex Lite works well with Naim.

Once you have the basics sorted I'm sure you will hear the benefits of the SL speaker cables.

90% of communication is non verbal, and on a forum all one can do is take the written word at face value. Clearly things are not as they originally seemed, and I am delighted that you understand where I was coming from and that I have your best interests at heart. No offence to anyone was intended. 

Let's hope you get this resolved going forward. It sounds as though what you have done already should reap significant rewards at little or no cost, and you should be able to sell the RA boxes to someone who will benefit from them.

I wish you all the very best, and should you have any questions that you think I may be able to assist with, you only have to ask. 

Derek - I'm happy to read you are now testing an alternative power supply arrangement and even more happy to see that the music, which is so important to all of us, is a 'tiny bit' more enjoyable.

If you are unable / not willing to sell your RA distributor, try plugging your TV and associates paraphe alia into it - you may actually like what happenes to the picture quality.

Good idea Adam.

It may effect the hifi though if you don't have a dedicated supply. As Richard Dane experienced, just having something messing with the mains plugged in else where in the house may impact on your system. A dedicated supply would be ideal and if you're in a bungalow id have thought it would be relatively simply to install by a qualified electrician. 

Many thanks HH and Adam (and FINKFAN), I do intend to try and sell the RA devices to make a financial contribution towards a permament and satisfactory solution to the mains distribution problem.

By the way, there what appears to be an electricity sub-station (judging by the warning signs on the doors) housed in a domestic sized garage type building about 25 metres from my bungalow, so I was thinking maybe I ought give my 'old mate' Russ a ring about running some Kimber cable straight across to the hi-fi and cut out the 'middle man' (i.e. the electric meter) but on the other hand, maybe not!!!

Just to summarise my findings over the sound quality from my system since making the changes mentioned earlier in the thread:

Rhythmic drive and flow and sound balance is possibly slightly better, though it has always excelled in those areas anyway, definitely more vivid with better separation and 'air' between instruments (or 'sounds' in the case of electronic music) and vocals standing out from the mix better, with what was fine detail now being far more obvious with additional fine detailing not heard before.

So all in all, a good promising start to what hopefully will become an extremely satisfying conclusion in the near future.    

Sorry MDS, I meant to thank you for input aswell!

Sorry again, I meant PCD of course. My only excuse is that I am now very tired, so I'm going to bed down, goodnight to all.

Derek,

I have only heard good things about Acoustica, and they are a well respected Naim dealer. OK they may have missed the RA mains block issue and some may say that is a rookie mistakes. But we are all human - I guess their real misjudgement was to cast doubt on your speakers as the source of sub-optimal SQ. However, at the end of the day we all rely on our local Naim dealer to provide us with advice and kit. I believe you will be well advised to accept the support of Acoustica now they have the source of the 'problem' identified and rely on them for future advice. I am sure this is what you are doing anyway without the 'helpful' advice from us on here.

I really dislike the bashing of Naim dealers on here. Without exception they endeavour to try to get to the bottom of such issues but occasionally miss something. Who in their professional career have not made a mistake? Get over it and move on. These guys have our best interests at heart and that is all we need to rely on.

I would however be interested to know if you are going to demo SL cables again and what the outcome is. Once you have sorted out the main distribution issues, I really think SLs are worth another go. I for one have found SL cables little short of revelatory.

From your postings, I realise there are other things taking over your attention at the moment and these are far more important than hifi. I wish you well for the future and am glad you have (are getting) to the bottom of the minor issue of hifi.