282/HCDR connection? SuperLumina?

No.

There are no SL alternatives to SNAIC or Burndy.

Moderated Post:  Strat, please be respectful of forum rules.  Discussion of unauthorised modifications, which includes non-Naim power supplies and "SNAIC" or "Burndy" substitutes on Naim kit is not on...

I suppose the Burndy between the 282/252/552 and SC/552PS is closer to par with the SL line. But I imagine there are customers using a HL/SL IC between Source and 282, who also have the SL DIN>XLR cable between HCDR and 250DR with SL speaker cable flowing off. 

There's a hole there waiting to be plugged...

Aric,

I write in full awareness that I might be moderated.

When I had my last but one system, I used a HCDR with a SN1. I was using Vertere IC and speaker cables (a costly experiment), so I thought I could try the full solution. I contacted Vertere, and they made, and sent me, a 4-pin, 270°, DIN cable and a 5-pin, 270° DIN cable to work as SNAICs. They might be considered an upgrade, a side grade and a downgrade to the SNAICs, depending on taste; I found that their sound (please let's all leave the can of worms closed) was richer, fuller, more 'structured' and more refined than the SNAICs'. It was a matter of shades but also of objective perception of details, so it is partly down to personal preference. Was it worth it? They were not cheap. I sold them because I sold my whole system. They are very good cables.

Perhaps, given the rumoured relationship between Nam and Vertere, this will be accepted. They now are used by a respectable forum member here, who might, perhaps want to share his opinion on those.

Best

Max

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Moderated Post:  Strat, please be respectful of forum rules.  Discussion of unauthorised modifications, which includes non-Naim power supplies and "SNAIC" or "Burndy" substitutes on Naim kit is not on...

No problem - so we can talk 3rd party inter connects, PLs and speaker cables but not SNAICs?

It's because it's the snaics and burndies that carry the power from power supplies to preamps, crossovers and so on. The wires from say a Hicap to a power amp carry no power and so the potential safety issues are less, or don't apply. 

Non-Naim interconnects, speaker cables etc.. no problem.  However SNAICs and Burndys carry DC power between kit and getting this even a little bit wrong means, at best, compromised performance, and at worst, potentially catastrophic consequences.  Naim's view is that using anything other than Naim built SNAICs and Burndys constitutes an unauthorised modification and puts your system at potential risk.  

Thanks guys understood. 

Richard,

Understand, thanks for clarifying. I'm not interested in another make to replace the Naim SNAIC, just curious if Naim have done any recent R&D in this arena? Don't see the fact that if they are as hurting any potential sales, as for the most part, the SNAIC is included in several different kit and if you want to connect your system and it wasn't included, you're going to need to buy one. 

It's always struck me as an interesting and, albeit initially, confusing solution for connecting the system (i.e. sharing power and signal). I would really like to see what SL technology applied to the SNAIC could do.

Aric

So, in other words, if Naim came out with a SNAIC that was 10 times the cost of their current cable, you would purchase it because the current SNAIC is as you say the "weak link".

Why do you refer to it as the weak link, is it because it doesn't cost $4000.00 dollars?

Boy, people love to spend money on a solution to a problem that doesn't exist!

I could imagine Naim loving customers with a mindset like you, manufacture a cable that costs $25.00 dollars to make, stick a $4000.00 dollar price on it, tout it as an improvement, blame the cost on all the R&D that went into this new wonder cable, and just watch the sheep wait in line with credit cards in hand, and laugh all the way to the bank.

I hope Naim doesn't do business like that, they use to have integrity, no Planned obsolescence , and  would only replace a product when there was an absolute improvement to the prior product. I honestly don't know if that is the philosophy any longer, but one can only hope that those in charge still have some type of integrity. It is what set Julian Vereker and Naim apart from the crowd in the past.  

feeling_zen posted:

No.

There are no SL alternatives to SNAIC or Burndy.

Just checking, Active Systems:

Is this correct ?

SL 5 pin Source IC. Cdx2 to 282

Snaic 5 pin, 282 to HCDR

SL IC 4 pin/5 pin, HCDR to Snaxo

Burndy, SCDR to Snaxo

3 x SL 4 pin/XLR, Snaxo to Amps

Amps  to Briks

 Briks to Ears

Next year, SCDR & Snaxo!  Maybe....

Allante93!

badlands posted:

So, in other words, if Naim came out with a SNAIC that was 10 times the cost of their current cable, you would purchase it because the current SNAIC is as you say the "weak link".

Why do you refer to it as the weak link, is it because it doesn't cost $4000.00 dollars?

Boy, people love to spend money on a solution to a problem that doesn't exist!

I could imagine Naim loving customers with a mindset like you, manufacture a cable that costs $25.00 dollars to make, stick a $4000.00 dollar price on it, tout it as an improvement, blame the cost on all the R&D that went into this new wonder cable, and just watch the sheep wait in line with credit cards in hand, and laugh all the way to the bank.

I hope Naim doesn't do business like that, they use to have integrity, no Planned obsolescence , and  would only replace a product when there was an absolute improvement to the prior product. I honestly don't know if that is the philosophy any longer, but one can only hope that those in charge still have some type of integrity. It is what set Julian Vereker and Naim apart from the crowd in the past.  

Maybe you should go listen to SL and compare it to the standard gray lavender IC and NACA5. If you can't tell a noticeable improvement you should then go schedule a hearing exam. 

Whether the SNAIC can be improved or not is the whole point - but one that requires a dedicated effort to try in the first place. Saying it's good enough so there's no reason to bother to try and improve it is absolutely asinine. With that attitude we would have accomplished very little as a species beyond the neolithic. 

Aric, I'd be willing to bet that Naim have been working on it.  But, as Badlands correctly points out, Naim is not a company to just cynically throw any old expensive cable out there for its customer base.  If it doesn't perform then it's back to the drawing board.  This is why the Hi-line never went beyond a source interconnect - despite lots of testing and prototyping and listening, it was felt that while it worked well on the digital sources, it didn't do quite as well anywhere else. The DIN-XLR leads between the pre/psu and higher end power amps was a particular issue; Naim took a ton of flak over what many just saw as a basic flex lead. Thing is though, it was electrically ideal for the task and in the most critical musical areas, it just worked better than the (many) other alternatives tried. So Naim took the criticism on the chin, safe in the knowledge that if you trusted your ears over your eyes, it was a great lead for relatively modest cost. Despite lots of testing and listening, the cable designed for use in the Hi-line interconnect just didn't work that well here - it robbed the music of something- vitality I guess you could say, everything becoming overly polished. So, in trying to find something even better it was back the drawing board, many long hours (years) of R&D work, testing, listening,  and from that, the SL cables emerged. But again, not yet for every application...

Richard, Very interesting insight into the cable selection process - thanks.

Huge posted:

Richard, Very interesting insight into the cable selection process - thanks.

Interesting and true, just read beyond the lines!

"During the development of STATEMENT, our flagship amplification system, our engineers realised that they would need to design a whole new range of high-performance cables for it to reach its true potential.  

With this in mind they began a development project to design interconnects and speaker cable that would meet STATEMENT standards of performance. Through a deep understanding of material science and after thousands of hours testing in the listening room, the Super Lumina range was born.

Designed to maximise the performance of OUR 155K STATEMENT, but,  IF YOU HAVE THE CASH TO SPARE, equally at home in our 38K 500 Series and Classic Series systems, WHICH INCLUDES OUR MIDDLE OF THE ROAD 282/250 SYSTEM"

That's what I like about Naim they put it in writing !

It's this expensive hobby of ours, we spend thousands for subtle differences that can't be detected by the Norm, but remember, we aren't the Norm.

It's all personal, we have the choice, to spend our CASH, as we like.

The Statement = 155K

Our Ears = Priceless!

 Allante93!

Aric,

You pose a reasonable question, and Richards observations and esueng discussion are most informative.  Given the considerable cost of SL cables, I would wonder how it would compete with trading the HCDR for a Supercap.  Of course, if you had a Supercap, you would need TWO SL Snaics, and I would wonder how that would compare to trading the 282 for a 252 using a Burndy...

Charlie

Richard,

I agree with Huge, very interesting and informative. Had no idea that Naim attempted to use the HiLine tech with the power/signal cable transfer. It does indeed say quite a bit about the SNAIC. How long has the SNAIC reigned in current guise? 

Aric

Aric,  not the SNAIC, AFAIK it never got beyond the work on the XLR-DIN lead.  If it didn't work here, no point in trying to develop it as a SNAIC.

The last big change with the SNAIC came with the change of colour from grey to black, the latter bringing considerable sonic benefits over the former.

Aric posted:

 

Maybe you should go listen to SL and compare it to the standard gray lavender IC and NACA5. If you can't tell a noticeable improvement you should then go schedule a hearing exam. 

Whether the SNAIC can be improved or not is the whole point - but one that requires a dedicated effort to try in the first place. Saying it's good enough so there's no reason to bother to try and improve it is absolutely asinine. With that attitude we would have accomplished very little as a species beyond the neolithic. 

Charlie,

Very true. I would expect the 82/SC (w/SNAIC) to better a 82/HCDR (w/'fictitious' SL SNAIC). And I would also expect the 252/SC/Burndy to improve upon a 282/SC/SL SNAIC. But then again, maybe it doesn't work out that way. The shock effects of such consequences would reverberate as loudly as when Pluto was dismissed! Perish the thought. 

I just picked up my sixth shelf of Fraim, which is going to be it until I move and either add another base or eliminate my AV components from current rack (as it is just a very slim Sony BluRay player and Apple TV). The sixth shelf is long overdue and will really place my system in an ideal as possible configuration (w/o going separate racks and separating brain from brawn). But there is simply no room for a SC until after such a move. Would I then consider a purchase of a SL SNAIC before going to separate racks + SC, etc.? Yes, as it's not something that would have to be changed later on. My Fraim was the second bit of Naim kit I purchased after a pair of speakers being the first. So I'm an oddball I realize, but the nice thing is since the Fraim purchase I've never worried about the support system my kit resides on. 

In the event of upgrading the HCDR to a SC, I will look to replace my Rega Aria with a SuperLine. So the HCDR will still see plenty of critical use.

Aric

Richard Dane posted:

Aric,  not the SNAIC, AFAIK it never got beyond the work on the XLR-DIN lead.  If it didn't work here, no point in trying to develop it as a SNAIC.

The last big change with the SNAIC came with the change of colour from grey to black, the latter bringing considerable sonic benefits over the former.

Oh my goodness, the Super Lumia is a grey colour!  Does this mean Naim has discovered and overcome the reason why black cables are so much better than grey cables?

PS... sorry Richard, no disrespect, I couldn't help it, it just popped into my head and made its way straight to my keyboard.

Richard Dane posted:

Aric,  not the SNAIC, AFAIK it never got beyond the work on the XLR-DIN lead.  If it didn't work here, no point in trying to develop it as a SNAIC.

Selecting a cable for signal to power amp must be a bit of a black art.

 I recently made three cables using Mogami 2549.

1. Preamp to headphone amp - excellent.

 2. DVD/CD player to preamp – excellent.

 3. Signal to power amp – abysmal.

Treble/upper mid crystal clear, but lower mid/bass way back in the mix, no pace, rhythm or timing. I put up with it for a week, last night I went back to the grey snaic and let out a sigh of relief.

rjstaines posted:

Oh my goodness, the Super Lumia is a grey colour!  Does this mean Naim has discovered and overcome the reason why black cables are so much better than grey cables?

 

No. In five years naim will be releasing the "SUPER DUPA LUMIA" range of cables

Only available in black, at three times the cost.

Something to look forward to, Fatcat !

In the meantime my personal preference is for quite expensive white cables... for me they just give more than the equally quite expensive grey cables... 'open windows' and such meaningless phrases as we can muster to describe the audio phenomenon we're hearing.

rjstaines posted:

... 'open windows' and such meaningless phrases as we can muster to describe the audio phenomenon we're hearing.

 

There's an old adage from the Radio Ham community:  The more you open the window, the more the muck flies in!