Had an interesting experience today that brought back memories.
I had a friend come over to demo my PMC Twenty.23s to replace his B&W CM1 S2s. Loves many genres but mainly classical and looking for a speaker with a light touch even at volume. But a violinist with experience in an orchestra and who attends a lot of live orchestral performances. To cut a long story short, he really did not take a liking to the 23s at all. Perfectly fine, but the reason: far too much bass.
Yes I know, the 23s aren't exactly a bass heavy speaker on any day of the week. Mine are in a large room and fairly well controlled by 282 into a 250DR. I've even been contemplating replacing them with Twenty5.24s because they can lack a bit of punch. But here's the thing; from my friend's perfectly valid point of view, while playing in an orchestra or listening to live orchestra he has never ever felt any low frequency response from a live instrument uncluding the percussion section. As a result, in his view, if you can feel bass, then the system is simply wrong. End of story. Bass should be heard and never felt.
This got me thinking. Back in the 90s, when I was in the trade, there were profiles of certain customer types that generally held true. One was that any customer who played an traditionally non amped instrument (so orchestral roles) generally (well always) had this same view. If you can feel bass ever, then the system is wrong. Not much point arguing about this or discussing the fact that if it is mastered that way then it's mastered that way. It was a fairly commonly held view from those types of musicians. It then became a challenge to find out whether they had pockets deep enough to steer towards electrostatics (ESL-63s) or, if pockets be shallow, to steer onto a speaker and amp set where the amp had tone controls which they would invariably turn the bass all the way down. The result was often a system where the prospect of listening to it for 10 minutes could be weighed up with elective root canal surgery for all the joy it had. Nevertheless, it pleased the customer. Problems were with the customers of pockets of mid depth. Electrostatics out of range and no tone controls on anything in the mid range or the market (that we sold) so if they are looking at and any speaker that had traditional drivers was just going to piss them off (because you know... they produce some bass - a lot, a little it didn't matter - it was there). I might disagree but hard to argue with people who produce the ingredient that fuels our passion. I've yet to meet a classical musician that is an exception to this model.
Never ever experienced this ridged view of audio correctness from jazz or rock musicians. A few odd views (and odder system preferences) from sound engineers (I don't even want to get into that conversation). But now, as then, it seems classical musicians have a certain view of correctness, that if true, renders nearly every system out there worthless.
On the other hand, my take was that, my speakers failed to recreate live performance dynamics for the opposite reason. They don't actually have the low frequency punch the you get in a live jazz or blues venue.
Very curious about forum member's take on this. Especially if there are any musicians out there that can share how they reconcile their view of correctness from familiarity with live unamped performances with the system they chose. Are we all, as my friend hinted, listening to it wrong, or should a wall be erected between live and playback music and the two mediums kept separate? I've always maintained that a system that is good for specific genres of music but not others is a bad system. But now I am thinking this is not accurate. Maybe it should be that a system that does not sound equally enjoyable for all genres to the owner is a bad system; since a system that accurately reproduces music in all genres seems mythical in the light of today's experience.
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by Jorg
I think the solution to these observations is rather simple. My cello teacher played in an orchestra and he would always turn up the bass on stereo systems. In the orchestra, he is surrounded by 5 or 7 other cellists with the double bass right behind him. To him, this is how his orchestra sounded. The violins are further away and comparatively much quieter. I have seen the same with flutists who are used to loud woodwinds.She thought the more treble, the better. And I am sure for the violinists those twelve other violins are much more prominent and the bass is rather far away. I do not envy the people who sit right in front of the brass. Ear damage in orchestras is a problem.
But they all have an incredibly good ear on how 'real' instruments sound in a stereo system.
Jorg
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by dfw
I remember several years ago a world famous pianist was persuaded to swop her LS3/5As for a pair of SBLs. As she liked the sound of Naim amps (72/Hicap/250), the dealer (who I knew) thought, reasonably enough, that SBLs would be better. Not so, after allowing the SBLs a few weeks to run in they were returned. The pianist vastly preferred the LS3/5As which, as most of you know, have very little true bass but a boost to the upper bass to give a false impression of bass. What the pianist really needed was a neutral midrange and that's what the LS3/5As provided.
Nowadays of course there are many mini-monitors (e,g, from KEF, Harbeth and Spendor) which I'm sure outperform the LS3/5As although if you put those babies on the end of a 200, or even better, a 250, they certainly sing. Until I got into 202/200 territory in the Naim hierarchy, I did not feel Naim electronics could match the bass of a large symphony orchestra in full flow. As for those floor-standers with boomy basses, please gimme a break. For me they are painful to listen to as well as completely wrong at least for classical music (and for much of jazz and rock too).
David
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by Huge
Try accurately reproducing the following elements of classical music without the lower bass frequencies:
Cannons (the fireworks suite, nutcracker suite, 1812 overture to name the three famous ones)
Larger Organs (many and various pieces)
Japanese Taiko drums (and some similar Chinese instruments)
African drums (OK, world music rather than classical, if you take a strictly European definition of 'classical')
They just don't come across properly.
The main trick with bass is to control the room resonances and achieve an even response - mine is flat to below 20Hz, but still doesn't sound too full in the base with orchestral music as nothing is particularly emphasised (1/3 octave, +/- 2.5dB 15Hz - 500Hz).
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by Halloween Man
That's pretty impressive to have such a flat response for your listening room. I have a bump with mine that centres around 45Hz. Any ideas on how to tame this without filling the room with massive bass traps? How did you make your traps and what do they look like? It's a typical British Victorian/Edwardian room with chimney breast, bay windows, and carpeted suspended timber floor, 4.03m (front alcove to rear wall) x 3.76m (side wall to side wall, not took into account bay window) x 2.75 height. 3 solid walls, one partition wall.
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by Huge
Very interesting. Just for clarification, does "those floorstanders with boomy bases" refer to all floorstanders? I only ask because I find standmounts always fail to convey scale and solidness unless they reach the size of Briks.
I myself have never got on with ported floorstanders due to boomy bass. The PMCs are the first none enclosed floorstanding cabinet that has ever worked for me.
The beauty of transmission line enclosures - real deep bass is possible, yet controlled.
As pioneered commercially to great critical aclaim and success by IMf in the 1970s ( and played with by many a diy enthusiast, dased on wory by Bailey and others in 69s
There's very little difference between an open folded transmission line and a reflex enclosure.
The transmission line is using the resonance of an open tube, whereas a reflex enclosure uses a Helmholtz resonator.
Both are 360° phase lag reinforcement mechanisms at cabinet resonance. If a transmission line isn't folded, then it behaves better above resonant frequency, but that require a LOT of space behind the speaker baffle.
Posted on: 12 September 2016 by Innocent Bystander
Very interesting. Just for clarification, does "those floorstanders with boomy bases" refer to all floorstanders? I only ask because I find standmounts always fail to convey scale and solidness unless they reach the size of Briks.
I myself have never got on with ported floorstanders due to boomy bass. The PMCs are the first none enclosed floorstanding cabinet that has ever worked for me.
The beauty of transmission line enclosures - real deep bass is possible, yet controlled.
As pioneered commercially to great critical aclaim and success by IMf in the 1970s ( and played with by many a diy enthusiast, dased on wory by Bailey and others in 69s
There's very little difference between an open folded transmission line and a reflex enclosure.
The transmission line is using the resonance of an open tube, whereas a reflex enclosure uses a Helmholtz resonator.
Both are 360° phase lag reinforcement mechanisms at cabinet resonance. If a transmission line isn't folded, then it behaves better above resonant frequency, but that require a LOT of space behind the speaker baffle.
Other than the 360° Phase lag I think the two are actually very different, and certainly the performance is very different indeed in practice. I haven't attempted to go through the maths, but there's some excellent published work done recently by a methmetician named Martin King, while PMC's designs are testament tomtheir performance. Whether that 360° phase shift (i.e one cycle time delay at the very low bass end is significantbin a room with all its reflections and resonances is a matter of which I have no knowledge - I just know it is a design that produces deep bass better than most, if not all, domestic sized designs.
Posted on: 13 September 2016 by Innocent Bystander
Floorstanders, hmmm... As opposed to suspending from the ceiling so as to be able to vacuum underneath and truly decouple from the floor?
Meawhile those on stands and those that reach all the way to the floor effectively occupy approximately the same room space, simply depending on width and depth...
Considering boomy bass and clarity of midrange, aside from room effects they depend on the individual designs - however as a generalisation I would agree that at a given pricepoint one might expect small speakers on stands to be better in the midrange but not as extended in the bass, or larger speakers that are more extended in the bass to be more compromised in either/or midrange and bass control, simply because of the resources spent on either the mid or the bass sections. If you want good mid and good fully extended bass it unfortunately costs more - but the same is true if you want a good source, or a good amp: they tend to cost more than lesser ones. Without resources to get everything then the choice has to be where the money is best spent, part of which will be these decisions on the speakers - but as I indicated in an earlier post, speakers are the parts that most affect the overall character of the sound.
Posted on: 15 September 2016 by Eloise
There's also a tradition to also fire two cannons outside the auditorium (when permitted!), hopefully in time with the toy cannons that are traditionally on stage (which, you hope, don't actually fire).
I'd love to listen to a recording of this. Can you point me to one?
I should read the whole thread really, but Telarc have a recording using real cannons. There is also an Mariinsky Orchestra recording available from LSO Live where they borrow the Telarc cannons ... to quote from Bowers and Wilkins...
The thing everyone knows about the 1812 overture is that it features cannons and bells. This presents a challenge to recording engineers and producers - particularly how to record the perfect cannon. One successful solution came from Decca Records’ legendary recording engineer Kenneth Wilkinson, who fired a starting pistol into a dustbin and slowed the result down by 70 percent. The US audiophile label Telarc took the ultimate authentic approach. They lined up three 19th century cannons owned by the Fifth Virginia Regiment in the courtyard of Baldwin-Wallace college in Berea, Ohio and spent two rather enjoyable days and much gunpowder recording a range of explosions, one of which shattered the windows of the college's department of English. We borrowed a selection of these cannon shots from our friends at Telarc and you can hear them on this recording.
Hope this is informative to you.
Posted on: 15 September 2016 by feeling_zen
Going back to the main thread, my friend agreed with the clarinet player in my earlier scenario. As he plays the violin, while there is resonance, there is not really a sub bass component and he's not really interested in sounds outside of that range even for other genres it seems.
To give an example of how far this goes, I did convey the earlier suggestion made to use something like Audiovana to apply equalisation without the use of tone controls. They used foobar2000 (apparently this is more standard among audiophiles in my kneck of the woods but since I do not subscribe to the theory of this tweakery it is neither here not there to me personally) and applied all the low frequency equalisation settings to their absolute minimum values and fed that to their streamer but the impact on the bass to them was nearly nothing so problem not solved. Assuming they used the software correctly, I would expect the difference from doing that to be both horrific and startling obvious but not to their ears.
While the members here with experience playing classical instruments seem to generally appreciate bass if it is clear and proportioned, I think my past and present experience does show that some people, maybe not specifically musicians, are just wired to hear things VERY differently. What sounds tuneful to one person may be closer to nails down a chalkboard to another.
While we might hear of these examples and think, Whisky Tango Foxtrot? I don't think we can say anyone is hearing it wrong. It may go a long way to explain why we love the gear we have, like some other gear, and hate a lot of other gear that just sounds bonkers naff to us despite being popular with other people who feel our Naim gear sounds awful (and there are people who do - let's be honest).
Posted on: 15 September 2016 by Chris G
A very interesting thread. Many conductors during rehearsals for a concert would themselves go further back in the hall to hear properly the sound and balance. Orchestral musicians rarely get that luxury as they of course hear the sound from their position within the orchestra, which gives a very different perspective. It's fair to say, though, that some recordings present better sound than others, affected by the tastes of the recording engineers, conductor, acoustic of the venue, etc.
Posted on: 15 September 2016 by Klyde
I hate all this discussion, re: bass, peoples systems, and which recordings do the best bass. That's why I bought the Telarc 1812 in late 70's whilst I was at uni 
. Some people never grow up! You don't need a magnifying glass to see the cannon parts. I'll try to post a pic or 2 (not my pics).
Doesn't take much to realize that, this groove could pull the stylus out of it's mounting, or propel your beloved bass drivers into your lap. My Klyde could track this a few years ago, but the bass drivers doubled (or was that quadrupled?), in the attempt. The gratification however, if you can pull this one off, is almost beyond price!
