If you're a vinyl lover, would you prefer it if there were NO crackling of the needle?

I'm a physical media user and prefer vinyl to CD with my moderate sources. My exposure to streaming/ripped replay is limited but I've heard it variously; HQ at dealers during demos as well as at other forum members houses, and LQ on my notebook and on a former I-pod shuffle (via HPs). Either way and regardless of quality, the streaming/ripped mode has subtle artifacts I find less genuine than physical media replay - vinyl or CD. I find streaming perhaps less immediate, perhaps having an overall homogenizing of the SQ? Maybe too smooth or lacking a direct energy? Possibly I've just become accustomed to the sound that I grew up with and that is what my ears have come to expect.

Vinyl replay need not be inherently crackly. A decent cart, decent condition pressings, and a RCM greatly reduce LP noise, and I have no hang-ups with the shortcomings of LPs. Direct output from a CDP also has an immediacy to be considered. There is greater complexity and more variables involved in the replay chain with streaming.

Why can't a perfect digital copy of an LP instead of a master tape match the real thing?

I do see the appreciation of taking the record out of the sleeve, placing it gently on the turntable - akin to opening a fine Bordeaux.

Thanks for the responses, which leaves me to wonder what the future technology will bring as HD for the audiophile will prevail and vinyl has more of a finite number of uses. Much more!!

If I was starting out now I wouldn't buy a TT, I would just stream music. But I started out a long time ago and I do own a TT and records, so I'm happy to keep using them. And when when I do, I like the ritual of the sleeve and the little 'bop' as the needle touches the vinyl, and, yes, the crackle. It's part of the of the process, like warming the teapot before you make proper tea. But for me, it's a very small part of my listening: 95% is streaming, 4% iRadio and 1% records.

Solid Air posted:

If I was starting out now I wouldn't buy a TT, I would just stream music. But I started out a long time ago and I do own a TT and records, so I'm happy to keep using them. And when when I do, I like the ritual of the sleeve and the little 'bop' as the needle touches the vinyl, and, yes, the crackle. It's part of the of the process, like warming the teapot before you make proper tea. But for me, it's a very small part of my listening: 95% is streaming, 4% iRadio and 1% records.

I know, it's the convienance, I don't quite understand Streaming.

However, from what I've gathered from the Forum, I thinking about entering the Streaming world, on the Cheap.

Presently, it's Cdx2 Mk I, as I mentioned earlier, sold LP 12, last year. But, I'm semi Streaming:

MM/Airport Extreme/Airport Express/Systems 1,2,and 3/

All controlled from Android cell phone, with a Remote Application, which allows me to controll iTunes from my bed.

1462 songs, 5 days of continuous play, create endless # of playlist, purchase songs from iTunes for an buck, the quality ain't Bad.

On the Cheap, I'm thinking:

Audirvana plus/MM/Hi Face 2/DC 1/Ndac

282/HCDR/ Tri Amped Briks

 And wireless to other Systems.

 Not an NDS, but not 13K USD!

Still learning, I don't really have a clue, but some on the Forum, says it's hard to beat!

But, my Vinyl days, have passed.

 Allante93!

If you have 2000 vinyl LPs which you enjoy listening to (and looking at the artwork), why would you spend £30k getting hi-res copies? And would the hi-res copies be the same mastering anyway?

I am not convinced of the benefit of having different versions of the same music, unless it is one of your favourite albums.

The best way to reduce crackles is to get a decent record cleaning machine.

For many, many years I had an LP12, ending up with the fully Naimed version with Aro, Armageddon and Prefix. Over all those years I never had a problem with crackles, and never once used a record cleaning machine. 

These days I don't have a record player, and when I buy new music I try to get the high res version when I can. I only do this for new releases though, as the recordings were actually done at that level. Albums from Linn, ECM, ACT and a number of classical labels can be truly stunning, however I'm convinced that a lot of these high res re-releases are just up sampled rubbish designed to part the gullible from their money. Like Dozey, I don't want to have multiple versions of the same album; I'd rather spend the money on something new. But then, I suppose, I wouldn't call myself a collector. 

Going back to a point made above, it doesn't have to be either/or. I listen to the music from the nas most of the time, but also to a lot of FM and Internet radio. I did try Tidal but couldn't find much of the sort of music I like, so gave up on it. If people want records, CDs, cassettes, open reel, even Elcassette, DAT or 8 track cartridges, then that's great, they all have their idiosyncrasies and all make the world a more interesting place. 

Live music never has a totally silent background. The musician sliding in his chair, brushing his hand against the guitar, breathing in the mike, buzzing/hiss from the amps, etc......so why should your brain expect anything different? Even then, on a high-end vinyl source, if there's any crackle on a particular record, it's absolutely minimal. 

John.

The estimable Mr Ravenscroft was rarely wrong. 

count.d posted:

Live music never has a totally silent background. The musician sliding in his chair, brushing his hand against the guitar, breathing in the mike, buzzing/hiss from the amps, etc......so why should your brain expect anything different? Even then, on a high-end vinyl source, if there's any crackle on a particular record, it's absolutely minimal. 

That argument doesn't really hold water, at least if you aim is to hear music as colose as possible to the performance: the spurious noises from musicians are part of the unique performance, even audience noise if there is one (though in a quiet passage, hopefully not someone eating crisps or coughing) - but record surface noise is an added laye, quite different.

and yes, on a pristine record, scrupulously clean, not worn, surface noise may be minimal (though I doubt completely absent - none of my records were, even brand new), but in reality it tends to increase with time.

I lose interest in the music when I use forms of streaming. No idea why. Once the initial 'fun' of controlling everything from my phone/iPad has passed I simply switch off and do something else.

Vinyl engages me the most and I listen quite happily. CD is ok, better than it used to be (CDS3) but the new stuff I find lacks soul. I do understand the attraction, just not for me. 

Crackles and pops are an obvious intrusion but its a small occasional price to pay for natural sounding music. Maybe I am sensitive to digital 'glare', a certain shiny quality even from my CDS3, who knows.

I also like waiting a few days for delivery, or driving to a shop for a browse, part of my determination to slow life down....

Stu

It's those dodgy old SBLs. Clearly they are not up to the hip and happening world of streaming. 

How very dare you Nigel 

I'm with Stu as far as being involved in music really  only with vinyl. Although I do enjoy the convenience of streaming and iRadio. In fact 75% of the music we listen to is probably the later.

In answer to to the original post, I don't really notice the "crackles".

Look after your records, use a decent cleaning machine and minimise the snap, crackle and pop. I run an LP12 alongside a NAT01 and they're a revelation when the NDS plays up. Not often but it does happen - these things are computers after all. My previous LP12 lasted 25 years before I got a nice shiny new top flight on a couple of years ago. Wonder if the NDS will be around that long? As the say, variety is the spice.....along with my restored Revox B77. A horror or horrors to our digital colleagues but try one at 15 ips!

For me 20 to 23 minutes then a break, as I flip,is perfect and 40 to 45 mins of the same artist is perfect. Some cds are too damn long, with special edition filler.Then streaming can be continuous, and we also what continuous music becomes....yip background music.  My music listening is an event, the radio does for all else. 

count.d posted:

Live music never has a totally silent background. The musician sliding in his chair, brushing his hand against the guitar, breathing in the mike, buzzing/hiss from the amps, etc......so why should your brain expect anything different?

I wonder whether such factors aren't part of the allure of vinyl. Humans may inherently expect imperfection and vinyl provides flaws in the replay chain. Maybe those variations are subliminally reassuring to a certain group. Maybe streaming, with its elimination of vinyl's imperfections, is too sterile for that group. Some folks may be able to fall asleep in a silent environment while others actually need a level of background noise to relax - just to reassure them that they're still alive and breathing.

Anyone tried the new DMM CD Technology?

"sound as close as possible to the master.

The output of the JPA66 cutting curve equalizer transfers the analog signal to the A/D converter, a "Meitner EMM Labs adc 8 MK IV". This is still regarded as a reference for the best possible conversion to the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital format. The DSD signal is then recorded at a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz on to our SADiE DSD8 mastering system. Later, on the finished Hybrid-SACD, you will find this true 1-bit DSD layer and also a generated CD format at 16-bit/44,1kHz.

To enhance the tonal quality of the DMM transfer for the DMM-CD, we cut the music programme at 45 rpm, and basically only use the area between the two zero crossings of the cartridge arm. This is the area where the geometry of the pick-up arm is optimal. However, this decision costs a few copper blanks more, as it reduces the running time per side as opposed to the pressed vinyl LP.

With this new sophisticated process, a new digital recording media (DMM-CD) has emerged retaining the original sound of a Vinyl-LP but without the unwanted side effects. The DMM-CD/SACD gives you the direct sound of the DMM Copper cut - without having to go through the stages of pressing a record.

Depending on the quality of your D/A converter, you will experience a new listening pleasure when comparing our "DMM-CD/SACD" with a correspondingly pressed vinyl record. Certainly it will be an emotional decision!"

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

Anyone tried the new DMM CD Technology?

Vinyl pressings had DMM technology in the late-70's

I would prefer no crackling of the needle.

I did go for Vinyl a couple of months ago because I had no other idea for a present for my own birthday to ask from my wife.

This reason was also valid given the fact that not all historical recordings of symphonies are present on e.g. Spotify.  So it was also a possibility of widening my scope. As being music history lover, it is great to listen to recordings created in different era's and to do so, vinyl is unavoidable.
It's also great to listen to vinyl late evening to slow down the busy day before going to sleep. Much better than watching tv.

What was quite a disappointment to me is the noise generated by a turntable. Next to all the cracks which are quite acceptable since it is mostly related to the quality of the vinyl. Far more annoying: I can clearly hear engine noise from the turntable itselve (when the needle is up, pure silence - so no ground loop hum etc) on higher volumes.

Another thing is the lack of dynamics. My ((( Spotify / Chromecast ) || CD5imk2 ) && Supernait )) combo is simply much much better in it. Almost silence to fortissimo are instantly there.

I start getting the feeling that I never should have trusted the 5 stars on what-hifi given to this Project Debut Carbon tt.

The good thing is that when I pair the turntable with my old technics mid-fi system, I don't have these problems since this system is far less revealing.

But, I enjoy it nevertheless.

Sorry, bit off-topic.

Ardbeg10y posted:

I would prefer no crackling of the needle.

I did go for Vinyl a couple of months ago because I had no other idea for a present for my own birthday to ask from my wife.

This reason was also valid given the fact that not all historical recordings of symphonies are present on e.g. Spotify.  So it was also a possibility of widening my scope. As being music history lover, it is great to listen to recordings created in different era's and to do so, vinyl is unavoidable........

Another thing is the lack of dynamics. My ((( Spotify / Chromecast ) || CD5imk2 ) && Supernait )) combo is simply much much better in it. Almost silence to fortissimo are instantly there.

I start getting the feeling that I never should have trusted the 5 stars on what-hifi given to this Project Debut Carbon tt.

The good thing is that when I pair the turntable with my old technics mid-fi system, I don't have these problems since this system is far less revealing.

But, I enjoy it nevertheless.

Sorry, bit off-topic.

Nope, you're dead on target.

1st  off, you would prefer no crackling of the needle.

2nd , you and a large percentage of the Forum has multiple sources.

Remember, choice depending on Music and Mood.

Mood, you prefer the TT, to relax, and unwind.

Music, availability!

Hence, you have chosen 2 of the 3 sources.

Now, if money was no problem, you and 90% of the Forum, would be sporting an LP 12, CD555, and an NDS Streaming device!

Now Joerand, he prefers the Analog TT, but I bet he has an CDP purched upon his Isoblue!

Personally, I prefer the Golden Extreme, the source in the Middle, The Digital CD.

No crackling, and dynamics, and Stockfisch DMM CD digital mastering ain't Bad.

On one of the cuts, Sanctuary, they even mimic the crackling of the needle, at the beginning, but after that smooth dynamics 282/Cdx2.

 However, a Streaming device is in the making.

 Allante93!

Well, Linn have a system called Exakt. It is a digital solution including pre-amp. Playing LP produces less crackling BUT also less engagement for me. Maybe it's the digital conversation with a bandwidth of 192/24.

Also I'm a happy owner of a NDS with 555PSDR but still my LP12 with Ekos2 Troika and Prefix is superior to the excellent NDS in terms of pace and rytm.

MNn posted:

Well, Linn have a system called Exakt. It is a digital solution including pre-amp. Playing LP produces less crackling BUT also less engagement for me. Maybe it's the digital conversation with a bandwidth of 192/24.

Also I'm a happy owner of a NDS with 555PSDR but still my LP12 with Ekos2 Troika and Prefix is superior to the excellent NDS in terms of pace and rytm.

I have NDS/555PSDR and also prefer the sound of my recently acquired vinyl system of Roksan Xerxex 20+/Artemiz/Ortofon Cadenza bronze/Superline. I had long ago sold off my extensive vinyl collection and have around 3800 CD rips/ HD files. I now have 140 albums around 100 of which are second hand originals (all cleaned), most of which are free of superfluous noise, much to my surprise. The addition of the vinyl system was due mainly to my  belief, that, despite a vastly superior playback system compared with my old vinyl systems, I was less satisfied with the overall sound. There are a few disappointments but the vast majority of these albums do indeed sound superior. I had put this down to the recordings process. However last week I decided to compare my HD version of The National's - Trouble Will Find Me, with the vinyl copy. The opening of the first track was definitely superior via the NDS, however, when the vocals and additional instruments came in they sounded congested compared with the vinyl, This proved to be a a consistent differentiator. 

The other aspect of vinyl I have noted is that the 180 gram albums are not superior, for whatever reason, with older thinner vinyl. 

GerryMcg posted:

The other aspect of vinyl I have noted is that the 180 gram albums are not superior, for whatever reason, with older thinner vinyl. 

The 180 gram advantage is that it is flatter, the down side is that the tone arm angle will be a little bit different.
I think that many newly released LP, thin or thick, are less interesting to listen to than the old ones  
Better to listen to the old crackling LPs