NAC282 Flashing Mute button

I'm not sure what you're asking but long story short - a 282 will not work without a NAPSC, period. If you're using a 250, which doesn't supply power back to preamps (a NAP155 or 200 does) then you also need a Hicap in order to make it work.

G, yes, I already understood the NAPSC requirement, and it is always connected. However, I think you nailed my problem regarding your second point. I didn't realize that a HiCap was required when using the 250(.x). So thanks kindly for straightening me out on that point.

Okay, so my desired comparison is not doable with the gear that I have. Anyone have suggestions to turn down the 282 boogie factor a click or two without requiring a new massive infusion of cash (I just splurged on the 282, 250.2 and PL).

I would look at the speakers, Mission 770 speakers are pretty old, and were pretty hot sounding. I would maybe demo some modern speakers.

What's your source? A lesser source on that system might sound a little lean - however - I'm not sure that you'll ever be able to really reduce the boogie factor on that system. You've bought Naim - that's what they focus on...

Badlands, you may be absolutely right, though I do want to point out that my 770 mkV's are not stock. Indeed, upon my initial upgrade from a NAD 3140 to the SuperNait(1), the stock 770s immediately became unlistenable (this was the start of my Naim journey). So I undertook an upgrade project to see if the 770s could be reworked to my satisfaction, before contemplating outright replacement.

The crossover was reworked to remove the 12khz bump, and the tweeter series resistor value was increased from 4.7 to 5.6 ohms on top of that. The new design was implemented with high grade components like Goertz copper foil inductors, Mundorf caps/resistors, and Supra internal wiring. Not to mention that ferrofluid dries out after an extended time, which can cause further problems. So I replaced the original Vifa tweeters with their modern equivalent - ScanSpeak Discovery D2606/9220. The reworked 770s have kept up with my upgrades until now without embarrassing themselves. But the thought has occurred to me that it is possible that they are now the weak link, despite the upgrades (I'm hoping not, but realize that it is possible).

I do have a DIY set of speakers in the works which will be crossover-less, full range speakers based on 8 by Audience A3 full range drivers per speaker, plus 2 x passive radiators. But it will some time before those are built.

@G, it's a UnitiQute 2, but it functions as a transport only, when I use it with my main system, as I run it through my nDAC via coax SPDIF.

I also have a Townshend Rock7 tt, but it's out of commission at present.

Don't get me wrong, I dig the Naim BF. It just seems a bit over the top in my setup.

My professional opinion - upgrade from the source first. I have doubts about whether a Qute is suitable as a source for that level of system, even as a transport. Are you using a power supply with the nDAC? If so, an "easy" upgrade (and yes, I know how glib it is of me to just casually spend your money) would be to an NDS, which will more than sort things out a bit. The nDAC's a bit of a dead end unless you're planning on acquiring an HDX down the line (unlikely, I'm guessing).

Much appreciated, G (despite your casual dip into my wallet). Yes, I have a T-XPS on the nDAC. I'm a big fan of the variable reclocking buffer of the nDAC, as I've found the gains due to jitter elimination to be non-subtle (likewise, with adding a Wyred4Sound Remedy Reclocker (on an LPSU) to my Sonos digital out to UQ2, which I also listen to directly on my desktop (in that configuration, no nDAC, as that's only in play when I use the UQ2 as a digital front end to my main system).

So it may not be an NDS, but I suspect that in the configuration that I use it, it closes the gap at least somewhat (Note that I'm skillfully avoiding any triggers that will restart the bits are/aren't bits wars). Having said that, it's all theoretical, as I've never auditioned an NDS in my system.

Lastly, though I already have 8 Naim black boxes, I'm actually trying to keep the box count from spiraling out of control. And I do have to join the many fans of the UQ2 that have observed that it punches way above it's weight.

This is the most odd thread - why do you want to make your 282/HiCap/250 sound WORSE???

This is one of the most classic, iconic combos that will always sound good. 

If however you'd still like to spoil it I have a suggestion: just read this forum and apply all the advice in reverse 

I get the impression that you are a bit of a tweaker, which makes advice more tricky as the playing field is not level. As I see it, the new amplifier, which is extremely good, is showing up the inadequacies of the sources. Neither the CD5xs or the Qute are good enough, whether fed through the DAC or not. I'd get an NDX. In terms of box count, do you actually need a CD player at all? Maybe that's a box you could lose? I'd also try running the Superline from the 282 powered socket, and try an XPS dr on the nDac. Once the sources are sorted out it may or may not be time to look at the speakers. Do you have the system on a good rack - if not it won't sound as it can. You're not piling the boxes on top of each other, are you? 

One other thought - swap the 282 for a 272, put an XPS dr on the 272, put the Hicap on the Superline, and lose a lot of boxes you then won't need. 

I'm curious about the Rock 7 as I have a 2. I bought an "upgrade" platter from Max, huge dynamics but it killed the timing and without the paddle and trough the cartridge wouldn't track anything. The 7 has that platter as standard (unless you have an early one) so does it time properly with a gimbled arm and are you using the trough? What has stopped it working?

When I was experimenting with Rock updates I had a 282/Hi/250 and a superline powered from AUX2. With hindsight the 282 does regiment things into a groove somewhat but it does it entertainingly (I'm comparing with a 552 here, a 252 might do the trick but you imply funds are spent out, so not an option) .

If you want to kill the boogie plug a switching mode power supply into the power block supplying the system or if you use one of the Fraims make sure the cones are touching the sides of the cups, does rather lose the point of a Naim system though.

OP could also get a power conditioner and plug some Naim and a hairdryer into it

Wow there's much you can do to optimize there.  Your amp configuration really requires at least NDX/XPS or XPS on the nDac - if the latter you'll need to ensure a good data source for WAV files ideally.

I read what you say about your speakers but have you heard your amps with say Kudos S20 or Neat Momentum 5s?

All the other advice about racks etc holds true as well

Regards,

Lindsay

Tamarin,

I firmly believe that the worst of your problems is still the Mission 770s.  They were a speaker voiced to give a sense of excitement to music (whether it's supposed to be there or not), and so were grossly underdamped in all frequency ranges.  Couple that with a lack of low level dynamics and you have something a subtle as a slegehammer (and rather less subtle than Peter Gabriel's version).  Note that the greater part of this characteristic is in the drivers and also at bass frequencies the way they interact with the enclosure.  Modifying the crossover won't correct for the excesses in the fundamental design of the drivers.

By going from the SN1 to the 282 / 250, you've put in an amp that has an inherently lively character but one that balances this with subtlety as well.  Unfortunately, in your case, the speakers remove all the subtlety leaving the 'boogie factor' sounding exposed and unameliorated.

In overall balance terms those who suggest a source upgrade is required are also correct, but you won't get the benefit of a more subtle source component through those speakers.

Huge posted:

.... so were grossly underdamped in all frequency ranges. 

I wonder if anyone could explain what this means.

Hi Adam,

It means that Q_ts is high (typically that means above about 0.4).
Above 0.5 Q is considered very high and the speaker very underdamped.

When I was making & repairing speakers I stuck to a general rule of thumb & for IB cabinets used driver Qts in the 0.35 - 0.55 range.   Reflex & most other port types from 0.27 - 0.35 works best for QB3 alignments.   Open baffle is best with with Qts above 0.55.      My current main speakers have a reflex ported bass with Qts 0.27.  

Mike,

The Mission 770 is ported; so 0.4 is a bit too high and 0.5 much to high.  I didn't want to confuse the issue by talking about other bass alignments!

Let's not have another thread with three pages of impenetrable discussion about damping. This is a family forum. 

Thanks kindly for all the responses, gentlemen. Much obliged.

@Adam Z, point taken. I'll rip out my dedicated spur, and instead just use a 50ft, 18 awg extension cord from an outlet in the main bath, with a surge protected, plastic outlet strip on the end.

@Hungry Fish, Tweaker? C'est moi? Say it isn't so. The SL is already hanging off Aux2/Pwr. The nDAC has a T-XPS. No box piling (shudder). The racks are admittedly modest. Salamander Designs A5 racks are solid mahogany shelves with threaded rod affairs. I have a Sound Mechanics Performance Series platform under the 282, and Auralex isolation platforms under the rest of the gear. I've considered replacing the SM and Auralex with tempered glass on 3 vibrapods (safer in earthquake country), or on 3 dome nuts, on top of the wood shelves. Yes, this is per the "Support Shelf for NDX" (https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...upport-shelf-for-ndx) topic with representation by many of you same co-conspirators. Perhaps a future tweak (oops, there we go again). I haven't gotten through ripping all my CDs yet, so still like having the CDP around. Maybe I'll lose it at some future time.

@Yeti42, I bought my Rock 7 used from a local audiophile. It has the thick white HDPE platter, with the center clamp mechanism, which works great to flatten and secure vinyl to the platter. I don't know if that's the upgrade platter or not. I do use the trough, and I've been happy with the timing and the sound. It's currently out of commission, as I acquired an RB1000, but haven't gotten around to putting it back together. I don't want to do anything to artificially compromise the Naim qualities. The thought to try a 252 has occurred to me (given the reputation of the 282 as a boogie machine), but that's not in the cards for now.

@Strat/Lindsay, I have a T-XPS on the nDAC. I have a QNAP TS-251 with Asset, transcoding FLAC to WAV. I haven't heard those speakers on my system unfortunately, but point taken.

@Huge, your analysis is resonating with me (sorry about that). Your point on the lively voicing of the 770s makes sense to me. Especially as it matches a hunch from an audio pal of mine who experienced something similar with a past system. At the time, he had Mission Argonauts. Upon an amplifier upgrade (non-Naim, Carver actually), he found the Argos to be "overdoing things".

The http://www.thefullwiki.org/Mis..._Freedom_loudspeaker points out that the MkV has an "...emphasis on speed, attack and dynamics". So indeed, perhaps that was fine with the SN1, but now with the 282/HCDR/250.2, perhaps it's gone over the top.

By the way, I collected some spare, original 770 woofers during the rebuild project, and one pair had larger magnets than the others. Those are the ones that are installed currently. Unfortunately, I don't know the parameters of the woofers (neither for the small magnet, nor the large magnet versions).

Thanks again to all. I'm going to focus first on the speakers. I'll proceed with my DIY Audience A3 speaker project and see if those end up being a better match for the 282/HCDR/250.2.