Regen vs Gustard vs Micro Rendu

+1 to DynFan.

Generally - the simpler the better.

Get a Hugo TT. It is galvanically isolated so should be closed to immune to all the issues you have spent a small fortune on trying to fix with cables and Regens and zeniths etc. Sell them to pay for it. If you go down the microRendu route you will inevitably get sucked into fancy power supplies and spend a grand or more. Go back to basics, a quiet source and a galvanically isolated DAC. Rob Watts himself has acknowledges that an Audioquest Jitterbug can give a tiny improvement with a Dave which, although galvanically isolated, still has some residual coupling. When he wants to listen critically he runs his laptop from batteries. You could do the same with a TT and save a whole load of messing about and endless expense. 

Mr Underhill posted:

Halloween Man posted:

you dont need any of these little boxes.

Perhaps. Still need the best input signal, whatever the downstream components.

for best sq from hugo you need to isolate it from noise from usb and mains earth. the best way to do this is to use its optical input. use a sys concept 1300 strands 24\192 certified cable - you can order direct from sys concept in canada.

Certainly need to guard the signal from noise, RFI, earth loops etc. One way is optical, but things frequently come down to a complex mix of factors. The mR leverages the network cable's galvanic separation. In my case I use an AES cable between the DDC and DAC, with galvanic separation. Your suggestion of the Sysconcept cable may wrap that up nicely, or .....

if you really want naturaless sell everything except hugo and buy atc scm20asl pro or scm19a active speakers and connect using shawline rca to xlr custom wired as below.

Still need to sort the front end. I do like the theory of active systems, but I have heard great and poor examples.

This is where it would be good to have a bake off, so that we could get together and try a range of equipment and hear what is does within a system. I ended up buying three DDCs, and it was an interesting and not overly expensive exercise. But, it would be better if we all didn't have to invest the money to do the same learning.

M

Having been to 'bake offs' before...  what I have discovered  is that to what some sound mind blowingly good to my and some other ears just sounds bad or broken to mine or vice versa... unfortunately unless you know somebody else appreciates listening to music in exactly the same way as you (and it does happen) I think the scope for shared learning is very minimal....

But I agree when you find somebody who listens like you it can be a very rewarding communal experience listening to music on a great system... 

Simon

likesmusic posted:

Get a Hugo TT. It is galvanically isolated so should be closed to immune to all the issues you have spent a small fortune on trying to fix with cables and Regens and zeniths etc. Sell them to pay for it. If you go down the microRendu route you will inevitably get sucked into fancy power supplies and spend a grand or more. Go back to basics, a quiet source and a galvanically isolated DAC. Rob Watts himself has acknowledges that an Audioquest Jitterbug can give a tiny improvement with a Dave which, although galvanically isolated, still has some residual coupling. When he wants to listen critically he runs his laptop from batteries. You could do the same with a TT and save a whole load of messing about and endless expense. 

Hi likesmusic, remember galvanic isolation focuses on ground loops and modulated ground plane currents. Galvanic isolation, almost by definition, won't isolate RFI, that needs non-galvanic isolation as well.  In my experience of RFI the best cure is prevention...

for your existing setup the sensible and cost effective thing to do is use an optical cable to isolate hugo from source. no little boxes needed. you'll not have any issues with sys concept cable as it certified up 24\192.

i went from hugo to tt as i only have digital sources, needed remote volume control, and wanted usb galvanic isolation from my laptop running audirvana.

do u have anything else connected to your xs2?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Having been to 'bake offs' before...  what I have discovered  is that to what some sound mind blowingly good to my and some other ears just sounds bad or broken to mine or vice versa... unfortunately unless you know somebody else appreciates listening to music in exactly the same way as you (and it does happen) I think the scope for shared learning is very minimal....

But I agree when you find somebody who listens like you it can be a very rewarding communal experience listening to music on a great system... 

Simon

Hi Simon,

In my case just being able to listen to a range of equipment with your own ears is the key. I do find it enjoyable to listen to another system as it is interesting to listen to another persons priorities.

I think that both group-think & politeness can be issues, the latter as you may ameliorate your opinion to not cause offence; although I have to say that when I have friends over it is the honest opinion I want, although I will then filter that through the prism of my own priorities.

Dynfan,

I agree that simpler would instinctively be my aim. Of course a Naim box will have levels of complexity built in. The microRendu is more detailed, dynamic and musical than my NS01, which I used as a renderer; I bought it before Naim produced streamers, but I was more than happy to buy the mR rather than another Naim DAC.

I am building a bit of an 'USB chain', which I hope to simplify once my Sbooster PSU for the mR arrives! Personally my intention is to resist Regen/Intona et al and to watch the AOIP space. I am sure everything will be completely resolved and straightforward in a few years .

ThatsNotMyNaim,

If you are UK based near Sarf London you are welcome to come over and listen.

M

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

likesmusic posted:

Get a Hugo TT. It is galvanically isolated so should be closed to immune to all the issues you have spent a small fortune on trying to fix with cables and Regens and zeniths etc. Sell them to pay for it. If you go down the microRendu route you will inevitably get sucked into fancy power supplies and spend a grand or more. Go back to basics, a quiet source and a galvanically isolated DAC. Rob Watts himself has acknowledges that an Audioquest Jitterbug can give a tiny improvement with a Dave which, although galvanically isolated, still has some residual coupling. When he wants to listen critically he runs his laptop from batteries. You could do the same with a TT and save a whole load of messing about and endless expense. 

Hi likesmusic, remember galvanic isolation focuses on ground loops and modulated ground plane currents. Galvanic isolation, almost by definition, won't isolate RFI, that needs non-galvanic isolation as well.  In my experience of RFI the best cure is prevention...

We've had this conversation before Simon, so there's no point going round the same loop. Rob Watts clearly has a different opinion to you and has posted  most helpfully on the subject elsewhere. For example:

" ..if the DAC is not galvanically isolated, then RF noise can leach into the DAC, and hence make it sound harder;  With Dave, and using a battery powered non grounded Windows lap-top, where all the evidence I have is that it is completely and perfectly isolated from the lap-top RF noise wise, - Rob"

and wrt airborne RF

"Airborne RF is not a problem at all for Dave - that's why it is in a solid block of machined aluminium."

There are many similar posts where he says that the galvanic isolation on the Hugo TT and Dave copes with 99% of the issues, to deal with the residual issues caused by the 2uf coupling capacitance you can either use something like the Audioquest Jitterbug or run your laptop from batteries.

"If you want the best possible SQ then listen with a lap-top with battery operation - but like the difference between optical and USB, its in my bottom scale of SQ differences - audible only via a very careful AB listening test, and will having no significant difference in the enjoyment of music. In practice, when just enjoying music, I don't care about battery usage on the lap-top, or whether its USB or optical  - Rob"

So, my suggestion to the 0/P stands. Junk the expensive cables and convertors and sources. Spend your money on a Chord TT, drive it from a laptop on USB, and if you are being really fussy and can be bothered add in an Audioquest Jitterbug or disconnect your laptop from the mains for the last ounce of sq. The guy that designed the DAC does this. Seems good advice to me.

Likesmusic, I am just saying for RFI you need a different sort of isolation than galvanic isolation. Galvanic isolation decouples two circuits from each other from an absolute perspective such as a common ground. The electromagnetic field at RF built up around a conductor couples via a dielectric such as air and metallic conductors .. therefore different methods of attenuation and mitigation are required than purely galvanic isolation to prevent true RFI. That's all.

In the limit a galvanic isolator is not neccessarily going to impede RFI unless the noise and interference is in the ground plane.. and this is precisely what the galvanic isolator in the USB port of the TT does.. it decouples the source ground plane.. and attenuates high frequency cross talk in the differentiated serial lines.

Now if RF couples into the shield of a USB lead from an external source it will couple to the case and nearby conductors of the TT . You would need careful spacing and ferrite chokes etcon the cables to reduce the conducted RF. RF tends to get everywhere unless shielded or unless tuned/cancelled out... hence why I say prevention is better than cure.

So yes Galvanic isolators are great for earth loops and noisy ground planes such as from computers... which I think is what your referring to.

True RFI requires quite different methods to mitigate.. such as balanced transmission lines, shields, guides, decoupling capacitors and inductors depending on frequencies.

Adam Zielinski posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Firstly, I have an XS2. Read above.

Secondly, my ears must be hyper sensitive then because I have found the smallest things to change the feeling of the music. I've made a lot of progress too. If you don't agree, don't respond.

I've actually received a replacement for my Zenith today as the CD load wasn't working. I stuck a Naim stock power cable on it and wondered why on earth the sound was bright, harsh compared to the last unit I had.

So i put the stock cable on from the Zenith and the sound smoothed.

So please don't give me pap about what works and doesn't work. I hear it. If the music doesn't feel right. Then it doesn't. 

If you aren't interested. Then don't comment.

Wow....

having read the posts above it is quite amazing that with som many variables one can still enjoy music. I think the point here is that there are TOO many varaibles at stake. With NAIM at least system synegry is aparent.

Wouldn't it be simpler to start with ND5XS and Nait XS and just enjoy it rather than agonise over variouts bits? 

 

It's a fair point, but I tried a Naim Dac and preferred the Hugo in the system. Why buy an expensive streamer for just sending a signal.

What I actually meant is that ND5XS could replace all of the components. Just a streamer, analogue DIN-DIN to Nait XS.

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

It's a fair point, but I tried a Naim Dac and preferred the Hugo in the system. Why buy an expensive streamer for just sending a signal.

Because sending a clean digital is also critical...to have the Hugo perform at its best. Streamers happen to be be optimized for that

Stringerbell posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

It's a fair point, but I tried a Naim Dac and preferred the Hugo in the system. Why buy an expensive streamer for just sending a signal.

Because sending a clean digital is also critical...to have the Hugo perform at its best. Streamers happen to be be optimized for that

Indeed. I spent a while in the wilderness thinking I didn't need an 'expensive' streamer and adding lots of gizmos between a 2Qute & Hugo before normal service was resumed by repurchasing a S/H NDX. 

G

I think you could get a used NDX for the price of the Zenith, so it wouldn't necessarily be a more expensive solution. A nas, NDX, Hugo and Nait XS would I suspect be an elegant solution. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

This is the sort of thing that makes me very happy that I have a simple streamer. What on earth are all these things? Do they make a difference? It sounds like a nightmare. Can't you just plug things into a Hugo without needing loads of different wires and little boxes? Curious Hugo? Has the world gone mad? 

You're right, he needs to speak a more familiar language for us to understand: Burndy, Snaic, Lumina, Flatcap, Supercap, NAC A5, Fraim, Hi-Line, NAPSC, XPS DR, Uniti Qute, Uniti Lite, etc

GraemeH posted:

Stringerbell posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

It's a fair point, but I tried a Naim Dac and preferred the Hugo in the system. Why buy an expensive streamer for just sending a signal.

Because sending a clean digital is also critical...to have the Hugo perform at its best. Streamers happen to be be optimized for that

Indeed. I spent a while in the wilderness thinking I didn't need an 'expensive' streamer and adding lots of gizmos between a 2Qute & Hugo before normal service was resumed by repurchasing a S/H NDX. 

G

You were right about the Hugo over the 2Qute, so I'll tend to take your advice.

I'll investigate.

Cheers

Adam

Hungryhalibut posted:

I think you could get a used NDX for the price of the Zenith, so it wouldn't necessarily be a more expensive solution. A nas, NDX, Hugo and Nait XS would I suspect be an elegant solution. 

Could I use the Zenith as a NAS storage with the NDX? It has a USB port 'streamer'.

Cheers

the zenith has an ethernet port dedicated to the streamer ( a la melco). This is how you should connect it  to the ndx and get best
SQ that way.

Stringerbell posted:

the zenith has an ethernet port dedicated to the streamer ( a la melco). This is how you should connect it  to the ndx and get best
SQ that way.

Thank you. 

So I'll continue down the Gustard, Regen route but throw in an NDX for good measure.

I guess by the time you add expensive PSUs to the little boxes it gets a lot more expensive. But I'd like to them.

I regret not listening to the Melco now. But it's onlt because the distributor ballsed up the demo shipping.

i wonder sometimes if some are more interested in tinkering with gadgets rather than listening to music or improving sq. for naturalness or purity of sound you should be thinking about reducing signal path, not increasing it.

Mayor West posted:

I picked up a Gustard but haven't been able to have a proper listen yet unfortunately due to work commitments. Although you suggest connecting via optical I've read a few times that coax sounds better on Hugo. 

Did you have chance to try the Gustard? Interested in your thoughts. 

Cheers

Adam

Halloween Man posted:

i wonder sometimes if some are more interested in tinkering with gadgets rather than listening to music or improving sq. for naturalness or purity of sound you should be thinking about reducing signal path, not increasing it.

Just to update on this, adding the Gustard between my server and my hugo is a game changer. Much more natural sound. USB is over egged and forced by comparison. That's not to say it's the only option. But I've proved to myself that USB to SPDIF gives me the sound of music. So an NDX is being lined up. Some have said the Gustard betters the ND5XS to Hugo already. I doubt it'll outdo the NDx though. 

So fiddling is massively worthwhile here. 

DynFan160 posted:

Looking at forums like...computer audiophile...these little USB cleaner boxes have become an obsession. People with 2-3 of these in a chain, each with its own linear PS and special cables, the sum total of the entire mess being much more than the DAC itself. It's also gone beyond that to DIY projects of replacing the stock plastic cases of these boxes with "RF-proof" aluminum cases, etc. It's become an obsession, all of which I bet wouldn't pass a blind comparison test / it's all mental placebo effect to justify time and money expensed. 

If the PC/USB is so flawed, why not just get a good U2S or U2AES converter and be done with it?

Can confirm that a USB to SPDIF convertor is the way forrward for me. Sounds infinitely more like music. Alarmingly so with so many people plugging USB direct. Galvanic Iso or not. USB direct to DAC is pants IME.

Adam Zielinski posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Firstly, I have an XS2. Read above.

Secondly, my ears must be hyper sensitive then because I have found the smallest things to change the feeling of the music. I've made a lot of progress too. If you don't agree, don't respond.

I've actually received a replacement for my Zenith today as the CD load wasn't working. I stuck a Naim stock power cable on it and wondered why on earth the sound was bright, harsh compared to the last unit I had.

So i put the stock cable on from the Zenith and the sound smoothed.

So please don't give me pap about what works and doesn't work. I hear it. If the music doesn't feel right. Then it doesn't. 

If you aren't interested. Then don't comment.

Wow....

having read the posts above it is quite amazing that with som many variables one can still enjoy music. I think the point here is that there are TOO many varaibles at stake. With NAIM at least system synegry is aparent.

Wouldn't it be simpler to start with ND5XS and Nait XS and just enjoy it rather than agonise over variouts bits? 

 

Gustard cost £150 and sounds a million times better no with SPDIF into Hugo. I will go Naim at some point but i can't afford the outlay right now. Some have said the Gustard out performs the ND5XS in this sense also.

Mr Underhill posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Having been to 'bake offs' before...  what I have discovered  is that to what some sound mind blowingly good to my and some other ears just sounds bad or broken to mine or vice versa... unfortunately unless you know somebody else appreciates listening to music in exactly the same way as you (and it does happen) I think the scope for shared learning is very minimal....

But I agree when you find somebody who listens like you it can be a very rewarding communal experience listening to music on a great system... 

Simon

Hi Simon,

In my case just being able to listen to a range of equipment with your own ears is the key. I do find it enjoyable to listen to another system as it is interesting to listen to another persons priorities.

I think that both group-think & politeness can be issues, the latter as you may ameliorate your opinion to not cause offence; although I have to say that when I have friends over it is the honest opinion I want, although I will then filter that through the prism of my own priorities.

Dynfan,

I agree that simpler would instinctively be my aim. Of course a Naim box will have levels of complexity built in. The microRendu is more detailed, dynamic and musical than my NS01, which I used as a renderer; I bought it before Naim produced streamers, but I was more than happy to buy the mR rather than another Naim DAC.

I am building a bit of an 'USB chain', which I hope to simplify once my Sbooster PSU for the mR arrives! Personally my intention is to resist Regen/Intona et al and to watch the AOIP space. I am sure everything will be completely resolved and straightforward in a few years .

ThatsNotMyNaim,

If you are UK based near Sarf London you are welcome to come over and listen.

M

Thanks for the offer I didn't see this.

My Gustard is a game changer. SPDIF is the way. Now to investigate other alternatives. Mutec/TP/NDX. 

GraemeH posted:

Stringerbell posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

It's a fair point, but I tried a Naim Dac and preferred the Hugo in the system. Why buy an expensive streamer for just sending a signal.

Because sending a clean digital is also critical...to have the Hugo perform at its best. Streamers happen to be be optimized for that

Indeed. I spent a while in the wilderness thinking I didn't need an 'expensive' streamer and adding lots of gizmos between a 2Qute & Hugo before normal service was resumed by repurchasing a S/H NDX. 

G

Hi Graeme,

Could you tell me, did you ever try a different SPDIF convertor with your Hugo while you were absent of the NDX?

I've had a lightbulb moment today with SPDIF into the Hugo. With the Gustard U12 over optical. But I'm wondering did you try this and go back to the NDX? Ie is the NDX the next step for me.

Assuming you are NDX > DC1 > Hugo (Or TT).

Cheers