Regen vs Gustard vs Micro Rendu

You keep saying USB doesn't sound natural - have you tried the microRendu?  If you have a good USB async dac (like the V1) then this will blow away the competition. The core is interesting, though twice the price of a very good NAS so will be interesting to find out what it actually does and sounds like. 

charlesphoto posted:

You keep saying USB doesn't sound natural - have you tried the microRendu?  If you have a good USB async dac (like the V1) then this will blow away the competition. The core is interesting, though twice the price of a very good NAS so will be interesting to find out what it actually does and sounds like. 

 

No to the Rendu. Don't want to waste anymore time buying and selling. It's fairly pricey to buy/import too. 

I have a Regen/LPS coming - that should be a measure of weather USB cab sound good? It would have to be very close for me to then go and try thr Rendu. Especially when you can just try and buy an NDX/UC with SPDIF which is bound to be better than the Gustard? One would imagine. 

I'm.thinking easiest route to content now.

I think it can be dangerous to imagine when it comes to which is best for sound quality, and which one is may not necessarily be indicated by cost....

microRendu I believe is a renderer, so fits between the music store and DAC - whether it is good into usb is something of which I have no experience but there are a number who are trying various iterations of setup and power supply etc. Quite different from what Gustard and Regen are doing, though that may have already been clear, so potentially benefitting in the same waspy as some other renderers when used into Hugo.

I'm a bit unclear - are you saying you suspect the Zenith as renderer may be inferior to the NDX performing that function? I know we're talking with the benefit of hindsight, but if that is the case, is there any chance you can return it for a refund if it is not long ago you bought it, as I'm getting the impression it might not be as good as Melco, which it seems all who have used it claim is exemplary. I'm sorry if this suggestion is unpalatable, given your description of abortive attempt to try Melco.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I think it can be dangerous to imagine when it comes to which is best for sound quality, and which one is may not necessarily be indicated by cost....

microRendu I believe is a renderer, so fits between the music store and DAC - whether it is good into usb is something of which I have no experience but there are a number who are trying various iterations of setup and power supply etc. Quite different from what Gustard and Regen are doing, though that may have already been clear, so potentially benefitting in the same waspy as some other renderers when used into Hugo.

I'm a bit unclear - are you saying you suspect the Zenith as renderer may be inferior to the NDX performing that function? I know we're talking with the benefit of hindsight, but if that is the case, is there any chance you can return it for a refund if it is not long ago you bought it, as I'm getting the impression it might not be as good as Melco, which it seems all who have used it claim is exemplary. I'm sorry if this suggestion is unpalatable, given your description of abortive attempt to try Melco.

I thought the Core could function as a streamer and or server/streamer/rendered whatever. From what I've just read elsewhere I'm now under the impression you still need to control it with a streaming device.

Am I correct in saying the Core is basically a NAS specifically designed for audio?

Iconoclast posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I think it can be dangerous to imagine when it comes to which is best for sound quality, and which one is may not necessarily be indicated by cost....

microRendu I believe is a renderer, so fits between the music store and DAC - whether it is good into usb is something of which I have no experience but there are a number who are trying various iterations of setup and power supply etc. Quite different from what Gustard and Regen are doing, though that may have already been clear, so potentially benefitting in the same waspy as some other renderers when used into Hugo.

I'm a bit unclear - are you saying you suspect the Zenith as renderer may be inferior to the NDX performing that function? I know we're talking with the benefit of hindsight, but if that is the case, is there any chance you can return it for a refund if it is not long ago you bought it, as I'm getting the impression it might not be as good as Melco, which it seems all who have used it claim is exemplary. I'm sorry if this suggestion is unpalatable, given your description of abortive attempt to try Melco.

I thought the Core could function as a streamer and or server/streamer/rendered whatever. From what I've just read elsewhere I'm now under the impression you still need to control it with a streaming device.

Am I correct in saying the Core is basically a NAS specifically designed for audio?

Naim website states that it can go straight ti DAC. And be used a player controlled by Naim app. So more than a NAS.

"You can also use Uniti Core as a standalone digital source – simply connect it to a digital-to-analogue converter or an amplifier with digital inputs and control playback via the Naim app."

So UC > DC1 BNC > DAC (BNC or RCA).

Problems quoting. 

One would 'assume' that Naim's NDX will render 'better' than the Innuos. But this is a massive presumption. Albiet based on 40 odd years of music experience/engineering. But you really have to do A/B to find the answer. Not done that.... yet. 

I'm even more dubious the Melco will render any better over USB than the Zenith. There was a recent review recently in Hifi+ which declared the Zenith outperformed the Melco (which was the reference). 

I have to say the Zenith is doing something very very well to my ears. I'm just curious about the Uniti Core and NDX being Naim products replacing the Zenith in the chain.

Seeing as I have a 7v PSU to hand I am probably going to have to try the MR now. 

Sensing some confusion across several posts I don't know if this helps:

For playback of music files (e.g. .wav .flac .aiff etc) stored in your own home what is needed consiste of the following components before entering a normal analogue amplifier:

1. Music store - this most commonly is on hard disk(s) or more recently SSDs. Unless combined with item 2 the music store needs UPnP software installed to serve the music file to the external renderer.
2. Renderer (aka transport, though this can be confusing as the term has been applied to more than just this function) - converts the music file into a digital stream. (When built into the same unit as the music store this covers the function otherwise performed by UPnP player software.)
3. DAC - converts the digital stream to an analogue signal.
   Controller software - provides an interface where you see the music files as a library of music, and can choose which to play, then telling the renderer

• Uniti Core is 1+2+3
• Naim "streamers" such as ND5XS, NDX, NDS are 2+3, and typically use a networked NAS for 1. Can also feed the output of stage 2 into an external DAC, to benefit from one better than the in-built one.
• Melco is 1+2, so can feed a DAC directly. However it also feed the output of 1 through a dedicated ethernet link to something performing function 2 , effectively behaving like a NAS apart from the etherrnet link not being networked to anything else - some people have used this way to feed an NDX or NDS). It sounds as if Zenith may be similar to this?
• Mac Mini + Audirvana combined is 1+2
• microRendu alone is 2 (I think)
• N272 is 3 combined with a preamp

DACs are particularly sensitive to electrical/RF noise superimposed on the digital stream, so unless the DAC has adequate isolation/filtering circuitry on its input, or the renderer output has such isolation and the two linked in a way that can't have noise induced, then some form of isolator becomes necessary to avoid degradation of sound quality, typically by an additional bevice between 2 and 3 - which is where Gustard comes in when using Hugo.

some DACs are designed to be able to feed power amps directly, others not, requiring a preamp.

it seems to be widely held that Naim sound is primarily due to their approach to amplification (voicing), and that you can still get the Naim sound with other source components, and with other speakers.

I understand all that.

But it is possible to use the Zenith/Melco as a store only > Ethernet out > NDX. Then use the NDX as purely a renderer sending an SPDIF signal to the DAC.

There are many possibilities.

My interests for comparison would be:

Zenith > USB > Gustard U12 > Optical > Hugo / 2Qute (Done this/current preferred. Sounds best so far.)

Zenith > USB > Hugo / 2Qute (Much better than the Mac. But not as nearly natural as with Gustard even using expensive USB cables).

Melco > USB > Hugo (I'm sceptical but curious this will be any better than the Zenith. I wish someone could tell me exactly why the Melco would be any better. All I see is lower spec and reviews to suggest it's not as good as the Zenith.)

Zenith (As store) > Ethernet > NDX > SPDIF > Hugo (I've already tried a Naim DAC and preferred the Hugo so not fussed on the NDX as a DAC - Just as a (Naim) renderer). Seems mad though for 3k. 

Zenith (As store)  > Ethernet > MRendu > USB > Hugo (Intriguing. Zenith becomes an expensive NAS and MR is buzz of the moment. But £550 including shippig is too much. Especially when it can go towards an all in one box solution like the Core. I'm trying to talk myself out of ordering one here).

Then finally ...

Uniti Core > DC1 > Hugo (Ideallt this would be the best. As it's the easiest and simplest solution). 

Many permutations indeed - I wish you luck!

The downside of some of those options is that you are paying a fair proportion of the cost for redundant parts, while so much depends on the DAC. It would seem worth trying the Hugo TT with the Zenith, by usb and with Gustard to spdif. 

And I'm unclear as to whether you've tried electrical spdif or just optical, between Gustard and Hugo?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Many permutations indeed - I wish you luck!

The downside of some of those options is that you are paying a fair proportion of the cost for redundant parts, while so much depends on the DAC. It would seem worth trying the Hugo TT with the Zenith, by usb and with Gustard to spdif. 

And I'm unclear as to whether you've tried electrical spdif or just optical, between Gustard and Hugo?

Thanks for the luck! I'll need it. Still considering going back to listen to the Melco.

I'm waiting for an electrical coaxial cable to arrive this week. On trial. I will let you know of you are interested. Chord Shawline Coax SPDIF RCA RCA. Actually the guy from Innuos said he tends to think Coaxial will be better.

And I know on redundant parts. That's why the Uniti Core keeps coming into my head. No wastage. Naim sound. Would hope it sounds clean as a whistle.

The Melco is the irritating factor at the moment. Trying not to scratch the itch but now I've seen improvements using a Gustard, it's got the brain ticking again.

Re spdif, Imthink I mentioned in an earlier post that the designer of Hugo said it was better than optical, and I've only used that connection between Gustard and Hugo.

as for the  Core as one of your options, if it is up to the mark you could sell the Zenith and be quids in! 

It will certainly be interesting to learn of your findings as you progress with your quest.

is this right? ive only read rob watts quotes stating he prefers optical for the hugo and usb for tt and dave.

Will update on any findings. Cheers.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Sensing some confusion across several posts I don't know if this helps:

For playback of music files (e.g. .wav .flac .aiff etc) stored in your own home what is needed consiste of the following components before entering a normal analogue amplifier:

1. Music store - this most commonly is on hard disk(s) or more recently SSDs. Unless combined with item 2 the music store needs UPnP software installed to serve the music file to the external renderer.
2. Renderer (aka transport, though this can be confusing as the term has been applied to more than just this function) - converts the music file into a digital stream. (When built into the same unit as the music store this covers the function otherwise performed by UPnP player software.)
3. DAC - converts the digital stream to an analogue signal.
   Controller software - provides an interface where you see the music files as a library of music, and can choose which to play, then telling the renderer

 

• Uniti Core is 1+2+3
• Naim "streamers" such as ND5XS, NDX, NDS are 2+3, and typically use a networked NAS for 1. Can also feed the output of stage 2 into an external DAC, to benefit from one better than the in-built one.
• Melco is 1+2, so can feed a DAC directly. However it also feed the output of 1 through a dedicated ethernet link to something performing function 2 , effectively behaving like a NAS apart from the etherrnet link not being networked to anything else - some people have used this way to feed an NDX or NDS). It sounds as if Zenith may be similar to this?
• Mac Mini + Audirvana combined is 1+2
• microRendu alone is 2 (I think)
• N272 is 3 combined with a preamp

DACs are particularly sensitive to electrical/RF noise superimposed on the digital stream, so unless the DAC has adequate isolation/filtering circuitry on its input, or the renderer output has such isolation and the two linked in a way that can't have noise induced, then some form of isolator becomes necessary to avoid degradation of sound quality, typically by an additional bevice between 2 and 3 - which is where Gustard comes in when using Hugo.

some DACs are designed to be able to feed power amps directly, others not, requiring a preamp.

it seems to be widely held that Naim sound is primarily due to their approach to amplification (voicing), and that you can still get the Naim sound with other source components, and with other speakers.

How can Uniti Core be 1+2+3 (DAC) if it has no analog output?

Anyhow...I know that it's possible to use a Squeezebox Touch (with touchscreen, remote and LMS software (or Roon)) to control a microRendu. Wonder if it will be possible to do the same with a SB Touch and Uniti Core.

I think I'll stop wondering/speculating and wait until it's available for demo. I pity the new guy on the job when I hit him with a barrage of technical questions the first day they're in stock.

Iconoclast posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Sensing some confusion across several posts I don't know if this helps:

For playback of music files (e.g. .wav .flac .aiff etc) stored in your own home what is needed consiste of the following components before entering a normal analogue amplifier:

1. Music store - this most commonly is on hard disk(s) or more recently SSDs. Unless combined with item 2 the music store needs UPnP software installed to serve the music file to the external renderer.
2. Renderer (aka transport, though this can be confusing as the term has been applied to more than just this function) - converts the music file into a digital stream. (When built into the same unit as the music store this covers the function otherwise performed by UPnP player software.)
3. DAC - converts the digital stream to an analogue signal.
   Controller software - provides an interface where you see the music files as a library of music, and can choose which to play, then telling the renderer

 

• Uniti Core is 1+2+3

How can Uniti Core be 1+2+3 (DAC) if it has no analog output?

Anyhow...I know that it's possible to use a Squeezebox Touch (with touchscreen, remote and LMS software (or Roon)) to control a microRendu. Wonder if it will be possible to do the same with a SB Touch and Uniti Core.

You're correct ... Uniti Core would be 1 + 2.  The other Uniti devices (Star, Nova and Atom) can be 1 + 2 + 3.

You wouldn't be able to use a Squeezebox Touch to control a Uniti Core as they use different control mechanisms.  You could get a Squeezebox Touch to control one of the other Uniti devices though but it takes some cludges and various plugins (the LMS UPnP Bridge primarily).

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Mayor West posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Hello Mayor,

No problem. Do let me know what you think generally when you get time. If you have any experience of other SPDIF formats into the Hugo / DAC also by comparison that would be interesting to hear.

Innuous Zenith > Supra 2.0 USB cable (I've tried many, cheap and expensive, and this is the nicest/most natural for me) > Gustard U12 > Stock Hugo optical > Hugo.

I also tried the Chord Silver Plus which is popular hear but I find it bright/jangly/over detailed.

I'm tempted on more expensive convertors now or even NDX.

Cheers

Adam

Thanks Adam, I'll report back. 

I've read a few times that coax is the better connection on Hugo so I'm tempted to give that a go but just unsure where to start with a decent coax cable. Unfortunately a stock one isn't supplied with the Hugo unlike optical.

I agree with you re: the sound of the Chord USB Silver Plus. 

NDX into Hugo does receive high praise,  however I think a more elegant solution could now be the new Uniti Core with its dedicated SPDIF out :-)

Hi Mayor,

I've got a Chord Shawline RCA RCA coax on order from an online store. Trial 60 days. However be careful with the Coax. Some don't fit and you need the adapter / extender that comes with your Hugo. Better to find one with a thin sleeve at the end (ie not bulky casing). They will fit. I'll report back when it arrives.

Thanks for the Uniti Core heads up! I've not even seen that. Head buried!

Cheers

Adam

Yeah I saw the unfortunately small coax input for the Hugo so will remain aware of that when assessing cables.

Yep the Uniti Core looks like a winner for us Hugo-naughts and others who like to add an external DAC without redundancy. I'm looking forward to hearing the first reports!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Re spdif, Imthink I mentioned in an earlier post that the designer of Hugo said it was better than optical, and I've only used that connection between Gustard and Hugo.

as for the  Core as one of your options, if it is up to the mark you could sell the Zenith and be quids in! 

It will certainly be interesting to learn of your findings as you progress with your quest.

Halloween Man posted:

is this right? ive only read rob watts quotes stating he prefers optical for the hugo and usb for tt and dave.

I'm sure that I have read the opposite IB; I think Rob Watts prefers optical.

I've read many reports from other users stating that coax is better however.

Mayor West posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Re spdif, Imthink I mentioned in an earlier post that the designer of Hugo said it was better than optical, and I've only used that connection between Gustard and Hugo.

as for the  Core as one of your options, if it is up to the mark you could sell the Zenith and be quids in! 

It will certainly be interesting to learn of your findings as you progress with your quest.

Halloween Man posted:

is this right? ive only read rob watts quotes stating he prefers optical for the hugo and usb for tt and dave.

I'm sure that I have read the opposite IB; I think Rob Watts prefers optical.

I've read many reports from other users stating that coax is better however.

Thanks for challenging this. I thought that was what I had read from Rob Watts, but having gone through his posts on another forum i have found only what Halloweenman observed - so thanks also for the correction.

it is interesting though, that as Major West observes opinion amongst users doesn't always agree.

My apologies for misremembering.

Eloise posted:

Iconoclast posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Sensing some confusion across several posts I don't know if this helps:

For playback of music files (e.g. .wav .flac .aiff etc) stored in your own home what is needed consiste of the following components before entering a normal analogue amplifier:

1. Music store - this most commonly is on hard disk(s) or more recently SSDs. Unless combined with item 2 the music store needs UPnP software installed to serve the music file to the external renderer.
2. Renderer (aka transport, though this can be confusing as the term has been applied to more than just this function) - converts the music file into a digital stream. (When built into the same unit as the music store this covers the function otherwise performed by UPnP player software.)
3. DAC - converts the digital stream to an analogue signal.
   Controller software - provides an interface where you see the music files as a library of music, and can choose which to play, then telling the renderer

 

• Uniti Core is 1+2+3

How can Uniti Core be 1+2+3 (DAC) if it has no analog output?

Anyhow...I know that it's possible to use a Squeezebox Touch (with touchscreen, remote and LMS software (or Roon)) to control a microRendu. Wonder if it will be possible to do the same with a SB Touch and Uniti Core.

You're correct ... Uniti Core would be 1 + 2.  The other Uniti devices (Star, Nova and Atom) can be 1 + 2 + 3.

You wouldn't be able to use a Squeezebox Touch to control a Uniti Core as they use different control mechanisms.  You could get a Squeezebox Touch to control one of the other Uniti devices though but it takes some cludges and various plugins (the LMS UPnP Bridge primarily).

My mistake, I had clearly confused the functions of the Core with another - yes, it is indeed only 1+2 - and as such it will be all the more interesting to learn how it stands up in terms of sound quality against the likes of other similar items (Melco, Zenith, MM/Aud etc), and indeed against NDX+NAS.

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Hello Mayor,

No problem. Do let me know what you think generally when you get time. If you have any experience of other SPDIF formats into the Hugo / DAC also by comparison that would be interesting to hear.

Hi Adam. I finally got round to what was a fiddly but worthwhile evaluation of the Gustard U12:

The Gustard fit in in between my MacBook Air (with Audirvana+) and Hugo. From MacBook Air to Gustard I used a couple of different stock USB cables and also a Chord USB Silver Plus. From Gustard to Hugo I used the stock Hugo optical cable, and for coax I used a Chord Anthem Reference digital. Unfortunately I'm going to go against collective wisdom/experience and say that the U12 just didn't hit the spot for me. My initial thoughts via optical were that there was more detail, but I couldn't help but feel that the music was being strangled. It felt very regimented and too civilised. This may or may not have been the stock optical cable doing the strangling but I was suprised to have such contrasting results in comparison to your own. Going back to direct USB it sounded much more dynamic and involving. This is where I had hoped the coax may be the winner. Here it did sound more alive again; coax was an improvement but this time it was fatiguing in the upper registers and for the outlay, I just didn't think that I could justify cost to myself. Obviously I gave each configuration a couple of days play but ultimately I was relieved to go back to to USB cable direct into Hugo.

Annoyingly however, some of the extra detail the U12 pulled out of the mix stuck with me... so I suppose there were some elements that I enjoyed from the U12. Anyway, this lead me to try the Olimex USB-Isolater recommended by Rob Watts. This only works on the SD USB input of Hugo so for fear of losing out on anything offered by the HD input, I first tried playing 16bit/44.1kHz files using the stock Hugo USB cable into the SD input and then the HD input... I was pleased to find that I couldn't hear a difference between the two. I then added the Olimex in on the SD input and was pleased to find a subtle but worthwhile improvement in detail, smoothness and soundstaging. At £30 I'm shocked that I hadn't given this a go sooner. So the set up now goes Macbook Air > Belkin USB cable > Olimex USB-ISO > Short Hugo Stock USB Cable > Hugo.

Pleased with the saving I've made, I just couldn't resist a second hand Powerline I saw pop up. This has been the icing on the cake with the Olimex in the mix. It has been a surprisingly good upgrade. Perhaps I had lowered expectations but I can't recommend it highly enough on a SN2. So, I'm not where I expected to be at this stage but I'm very happy either way!

Mayor West posted:

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Hello Mayor,

No problem. Do let me know what you think generally when you get time. If you have any experience of other SPDIF formats into the Hugo / DAC also by comparison that would be interesting to hear.

Hi Adam. I finally got round to what was a fiddly but worthwhile evaluation of the Gustard U12:

The Gustard fit in in between my MacBook Air (with Audirvana+) and Hugo. From MacBook Air to Gustard I used a couple of different stock USB cables and also a Chord USB Silver Plus. From Gustard to Hugo I used the stock Hugo optical cable, and for coax I used a Chord Anthem Reference digital. Unfortunately I'm going to go against collective wisdom/experience and say that the U12 just didn't hit the spot for me. My initial thoughts via optical were that there was more detail, but I couldn't help but feel that the music was being strangled. It felt very regimented and too civilised. This may or may not have been the stock optical cable doing the strangling but I was suprised to have such contrasting results in comparison to your own. Going back to direct USB it sounded much more dynamic and involving. This is where I had hoped the coax may be the winner. Here it did sound more alive again; coax was an improvement but this time it was fatiguing in the upper registers and for the outlay, I just didn't think that I could justify cost to myself. Obviously I gave each configuration a couple of days play but ultimately I was relieved to go back to to USB cable direct into Hugo.

Annoyingly however, some of the extra detail the U12 pulled out of the mix stuck with me... so I suppose there were some elements that I enjoyed from the U12. Anyway, this lead me to try the Olimex USB-Isolater recommended by Rob Watts. This only works on the SD USB input of Hugo so for fear of losing out on anything offered by the HD input, I first tried playing 16bit/44.1kHz files using the stock Hugo USB cable into the SD input and then the HD input... I was pleased to find that I couldn't hear a difference between the two. I then added the Olimex in on the SD input and was pleased to find a subtle but worthwhile improvement in detail, smoothness and soundstaging. At £30 I'm shocked that I hadn't given this a go sooner. So the set up now goes Macbook Air > Belkin USB cable > Olimex USB-ISO > Short Hugo Stock USB Cable > Hugo.

Pleased with the saving I've made, I just couldn't resist a second hand Powerline I saw pop up. This has been the icing on the cake with the Olimex in the mix. It has been a surprisingly good upgrade. Perhaps I had lowered expectations but I can't recommend it highly enough on a SN2. So, I'm not where I expected to be at this stage but I'm very happy either way!

 

Nice one, Mayor. Glad you found a good solution. I may try the Olimex. Does it need a PSU to power it? I'm guessing it comes with a stock one?

Cheers

Adam

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Nice one, Mayor. Glad you found a good solution. I may try the Olimex. Does it need a PSU to power it? I'm guessing it comes with a stock one?

Cheers

Adam

Yeah like I say, not the solution I was expecting but an upgrade nonetheless!

The Olimex is definitely worth a punt. It doesn't come with a PSU but there is a small input for a Hugo-like charger however it doesn't need any additional power with my Macbook Air. As far as I have read, its only needed when the Olimex doesn't get enough power from the USB but mine appears to be fine. No doubt people have probably tried to supercharge it with fancy power supplies but I think I don't want to tinker anymore now I've arrived back at an improved equilibrium.

I do wonder whether it will match up to the improvements you saw with the U12 though because it seemed you got quite a big improvement in comparison to USB whereas I would say the Olimex is a subtle, but worthwhile improvement. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts if you do try it.

Hi Mayor,

I found the U12 to be perfectly acceptable, but as you say it did lack in terms of dynamics - so I sold it. As a DDC I preferred the Audio Breeze DU-U8 (Talema). Problem is that this is a rapidly evolving area, the current DDC favourite for many is the Singxer SU1 - any of these frequently in combination with the Mutec MC3+USB.

The current flavour of the month for renderers is the microRendu, although this may be being displaced by the SOtM sMS-200 - or the Rednet D16 if you want to go for AOIP.

From my POV I will be sticking with my mR etc for at least another year, then see how things have progressed!

In the meanwhile I am listening to a LOT of music.

M