B&W 803 D3

In addition to the first post, my current speakers work well on acoustic and vocal music, but with rock, funk, RnB, disco and other rytmics music struggle to present a neutral soundstage, ie ends up a bit thin with emphasis on the kudos great trebble and dont punch with same weight in lower registers. Hope you guys have some ideas and input, br Lars

B&W 803D3, ART and Kudos Titans are all excellent and towards the very top of the pack at the price range that you are considering.  The PMC Fact12 is also special (with a NAP500) but you would be best to audition fact12 with a NAP300DR to confirm that it will drive the speaker well.

The Kudos S20s are excellent at their price point but do deliberately emphasise the top end a bit - it's a conscious decision by the designer.

If your wife does not approve of the Titans (mine doesn't either), the list narrows further.  ART will loan a pair of speakers to you if you phone them directly.  A home demo of the B&W should also be possible. 

Bodger has a thread running called "Speaker Shoot Out" which may provide more useful information for you - worth using the search function to find.

Hope this helps, FT 

Hi Foot tapper, many thanks! Really helpful.

great idea with Art speakers. I really like them visually and hear great things about them with naim. Would you go for eg Neo 8.3 or Alnico reference for my level system (552dr/300dr)? I see that they have high sensitivity.

i also considered wilson sabrina, but seem to be a too tough load for 300.

i heard pmc fact 8 but found them a bit dry, maybe due to amp power then. But indeed they are good lookers. Maybe should try w 300.

thanks!

Lars

Hi Lars,
Please do not discount the 803D3 with a NAP300DR.  It should make for a great combination.  With speakers of this calibre, always best to audition in your room though, as the speaker-room interaction is such critical factor.

I tried Wilson Sophia on the end of a 32.5/hicap2/NAP135s and the 135s drove the Sophia speakers beautifully.  The Sophia has been engineered to be easy to drive (unlike most Wilson speakers), so if you like the aesthetics of the Sophia, then certainly do try them.  Your system would drive them easily.  I am less familiar with the Sabrina, though my dealer recommends them as a potential successor to the Sophia.

The PMC Fact 8 is not a speaker that I admire.  The Fact 12 is completely different to a Fact 8 though.  The Fact 12 may work with a 300DR, though I heard a non-DR NAP300 fail to drive them.  Replacing the non-DR NAP300 with my NAP135s brought a substantial improvement in bass control, grip, timing, dynamics and removed a very lumpy, uneven bass response.  Singers voices actually started to sound natural again.  However, I find the 300DR to be a substantially better amp than the original 300, so it may well drive the Fact12.  I have heard the Fact 12 on the end of a 555/552DR/NAP500 system and they sounded fabulous.

re the ART speakers, I must confess that I'm not a great fan of the SEAS Crescendo tweeter.  I just haven't yet found a speaker that sounds truly natural when equipped with this tweeter.  Hence my personal bias, which may be completely unfair.  Speakers with this tweeter that I have heard always seem to over-emphasise the high frequencies, making the sound a bit "brightly lit", "chrome plated" or relentless, if those terms mean anything to you.  So, when thinking about ART speakers, I phoned Derek (who owns ART with his brother Ramsay) and explained the current system, the room, which speakers had worked, which hadn't, what I wanted a decent speaker to do and what I didn't want it to do.  For example, I made Derek aware of my concerns about the Crescendo tweeter and about the risk of room boom if the system put out a lot of sub 30Hz energy. What we really wanted was not too much deep bass extension and no over-emphasis of treble but beautifully timed, liquid gold music in between.  He then recommended the Alnico 8.3 Signature in favour of one of their bigger and ultimately more capable speakers.  He brought a pair to our house, set them up, went though our record collection and left them with us to try for a while.  Then we ordered a pair.

Please note that I do not rate ART speakers more highly than equivalents from PMC, B&W, Wilson, Proac etc. I don't.  It's just that this particular model works better in our room, with our system, than any other speaker that we have tried.

On the other hand, if you read Bodger's thread, you will sense that he really likes the speed of the Alnico 8.3, yet may actually prefer the more "open" top end of the NEO series with the Crescendo speaker and indeed the greater bass extension of a model with a 12" bass driver - so perhaps the Neo 12 Signature, or indeed a pair of B&W 802D3.

Hope this helps, FT

Lars,

as FT says, I have had a pair of Art Alnico 8.3 Signatures on loan, in Greece for a couple of months. They are now boxed up ready to go back to Troon. I have also been able to try Focal, Magico, Kudos, Wilson and Sonus Faber in the last few months. All will a copy of my home system. But not my room!

The best alternative has been the arts. They are very easy to live with and do many things well. They are just not 3 or 4 times better than my old B&W 803S. I really want to hear the new D3 speakers, in particular the 803 and 802. The list really goes on and one thing I know since starting this project is that you need to get to a short list very quickly. People recommend all sorts without really saying why. If you can, get a home demo. 

For me, as I move house frequently, the room interaction is a moot point at best or guess work at worst. I will never know how they will sound in my house in the UK until I move back there. Do take your time though. This is a big investment and very personal choice. Get it right and let's hope we can both report back on successful choices.

Dave

Hi FT and Bodger,

many thanks for sharing your experience - really highly appreciated. Bodger fully agree to the need for short-listing. When buying the kudos I have now, i homedemoed 8-10models, and now will not be able to same again given family time etc. I really find the forum invaluable for the short-listing. 

Here are my take-aways so given want 1) lovely full scale sound, 2) white lookers that wife will approve of, 3) great match with 300dr and 552/nds (dont want to change gear), 4) punch to fill my living room and also beam into kitchen which is a total space of 70m2 with half in living room partial ceiling to floor wall between (surely not great for acoustics, 5) max height of 1-1,2m to not be too imposing, and 6) need to work quite closely to wall on backside

1. Kudos titan 808 - too big, not approved (maybe rumoured mini-titan could work).

2. Wilson sabrina - really like looks, great reviews, but multiple reports that too heavy load for amp like 300dr

3. ATC - would like to hear SCM50 passive but no dealer and they also are very deep cabinets +50cm. Seems like ATC is mainly for built-in active

4. ART - the 3-way alnico reference in white look fantastic and you guys recommend highly. These are also without crescendo tweeter. However they are 1,4cm which is likely a problem with wife. Will push :-) otherwise need to consider 1meter neo 8.3 and hope they come in same finish. Will surely call Derek as you recommend. Main problem likely that there is no dealer in Denmark/Scandinavia, so dont know how home demo is an option

5. B&W 803 d3 - so far have not considered mainstream b&w but these look great and also hear great things. Also they port downwards and hope they can work quite close to the wall. These are distributed in denmark, so will for sure have a homedemo. This seems like the easy option

All of this without listening to a single speaker :-)

will hear b&w, hope ART is option in Denmark, maybe kudos comes with something new as a nice surprice.

any other thoughts highly appreciated. And indeed bodger, hope we end up in a good place all of us in the end. A lot of reality checks in picking a winning speaker - woudl be much easier with a dedicated room, but then few would benefit from the system

Best Lars

Hi Lars

re your point 4, best to call Derek, as less than 10% of their range is on the website.  They do a 1.2m tall version with a circa 250mm bass driver & Alnico tweeter too, as well as the 1m tall version.  They specialise in home demos, so we deliver or courier a pair to your house to try.

Also, do try a Wilson Sophia if you can.  The Sophia is an easy load.  Wilson used to demo the Sophia with a NAIT XS to reinforce the point.  In our room, the Sophia ended up sounding best only circa 230mm off the back wall, and this with a rear port!  They really are excellent speakers.

Thats great to know! Looking forward to talk w Derek then, br Lars

Lars,

be sure to call Derek. I have just got off the phone with him now about returning the Alnico 8.3s. He shipped them to Greece so I'm sure he can accomodate you in shipping across the water to Denmark. Perhaps I should ship my demo pair to you directly!

As FT says, the Art website is a long way short of their full product line up. A discussion  with Derek will help you choose the right demo model. We are now talking about the Alnico 12s as an option.

Dave

Hi Bodger

this is fun and very live experience sharing :-)

spoke w derek today, really great guy! He suggested the alnico 120, but now being at home and measuring, i think its going to be too big.

did you post your experience with the 8.3 in another thread? Will look. I know you are used to big speakers, but still how big does the 8.3 come across? Its 115x41x35 so maybe ok?

br Lars

Hi Lars,
Does this photo help you to see the size of the Alnico 8.3?  
It's a 37" Panasonic TV in the middle and those are Ikea DVD shelving units behind the speakers.

p.s. there is a typo in my previous post ("will" came out as "we") which implies that I am somehow linked to ART.  For the record, I have no commercial or financial interest in the company, other than being poorer but happier for having bought the speakers above. 

Best regards, FT

Lars,

the Alnico experience is in this thread.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/speaker-shoot-out

Quite a few more speakers described there as well!

Dave

I've always liked the look of the Deco speakers that look like coffins, but they are not on the Art website so far as I could see. Have they stopped making them I wonder. 

FT, many thanks for the photo - looks great and a very nice space you have indeed! I would get them in all white to blend in, but its a very nice speaker for sure. Need to call derek again :-)

dave, thanks for the link - guess things are never straight forward in terms of finding the right/perfect speaker. I mostly struggle with form-factor for wife approval which really narrows down. I understand you also heard the wilson sabrinas - which power amp was used? Maybe should still try them as from form factor they are very appealing and I hear great things about them. Just wonder if 300dr is enough to make them sing (its not a US powerhouse)

HH - agree on deco, think they are made on special order... Quite big as well

Br Lars

I don't have much to say except that I thought the B&W 802D3 did not improve significantly on the 802D2's that I have.  I have thus far declined to pay the upgrade price.

On the subject of Titan 808's... there's a speaker and a half.  It took the 802D2 by surprise and sat happily in my lounge for two weeks... the show stopper for me was not surprisingly the £10.5k changeover price but the two piece construction !  I like to be able to shift my speakers around if needs be... the 802D2 can be'walked' around the room without having to lift it off the floor, whereas the Titan needs to be physically lifted top unit from lower unit.  There were days long ago when this would not have been a problem, but as the years pass I become less of a weight lifter and more of a wine drinker, so the prospect of having to call my dealer out if I ever needed to move the Titans was sufficient reason to save £10.5k.

For now the 802 Diamond is giving me all I need from a speaker... and luckily there are no specialist audio dealers around who have anything else to tempt me away from B&W.  That's one advantage (??) of having moved from down south up here to the cold north... the opportunity to spend vast amounts of hard earned on audio gear are significantly reduced. 

Foot tapper posted:

Hi Lars,
Does this photo help you to see the size of the Alnico 8.3?  
It's a 37" Panasonic TV in the middle and those are Ikea DVD shelving units behind the speakers.

Those ART's are really beauties FT - the attention to detail and finish is exemplary. 

Lars, to answer your question - I understand you also heard the wilson sabrinas - which power amp was used? It was all a copy of my home system so 552/500. They were a hard load but workable. I am not sure how the 300 would cope. Good bass and clartity but a bit closed on on vocals.

As for the Titan 808s as per RJSTAINES remarks, I found these very bright and forward and lacking authentic bass. Tiring at best.

Dave

Thanks all!

dave, ok so you would not be sure to use the wilsons w a 300, interesting how experience differs with those speakers.

br Lars

Lars, I only heard them with the 500. How they go with a 300 would be a guess for me. Try them if you can. 

Foot tapper posted:

Hi Lars,
Does this photo help you to see the size of the Alnico 8.3?  
It's a 37" Panasonic TV in the middle and those are Ikea DVD shelving units behind the speakers.

p.s. there is a typo in my previous post ("will" came out as "we") which implies that I am somehow linked to ART.  For the record, I have no commercial or financial interest in the company, other than being poorer but happier for having bought the speakers above. 

Best regards, FT

Lovely looking beautiful speakers FT. Nice to see someone else using a Spectral stand too. 

Agree looks great FT!

I now understand that there are many versions of ARTs, which specific model did you get? Is it the alnico 8.3 compact, ie about 1meter tall? Your profile says "signature", does that imply another level of choices? Would be helpful to navigate which variations you considered, if any

baded on your great advice and this post, I definately plan to take Dereks offer of a homedemo. Br Lars

Last week I heard 2 different models of Canton speakers (I think the Reference 3K & the Reference 5K, IIRC) on the end of a 282/300 DR, and I was very impressed in both cases. Sounded solidly better than some large Sonus Fabers (I think Olympica IIIs) that were also auditioned.

There are three versions of each speaker Lars, the standard, the signature and the Silvers.  The difference being the crossovers and cables used internally. The Signatures are the ones to go for, the Silvers are silly money.!

Hungryhalibut posted:

I've always liked the look of the Deco speakers that look like coffins, but they are not on the Art website so far as I could see. Have they stopped making them I wonder. 

The Deco's were replaced by the Alnico's Nigel. Although there are versions of the Deco's back at ART which may be available.

Thanks PB - wont spend silly money then :-)