Clinton - Trump Debate
Posted by: Erich on 26 September 2016
It is espected that more than 100 million people will listen to the debate. More than Regan - Carter in 1980.
Any thoughts from the forumites in the USA?
Dr Mark,
Perhaps you would like to enlighten someone who is obviously not up to speed with US politics.
I agree with your sentiment about Dick Cheney and in particular, Donald Rumsfeld. I would also not be able to find anything positive about Rumsfeld. From what I gather, he is a particularly unpleasant character.
However, what I do not understand is your assertion that Hilary Clinton has anything whatsoever in common with these individuals.
Can you enlighten me?
The Donald is self destructing, and senior republicans are terrified!
Do I have any sympathy for these politicians? Nope!
However, Endorsement is different from supporting the Donald, and could prove to be very risky.
Ok, I get it, separation of power checks and balances.
2nd, no-brainer, the Executive branch Hilary.
So these desperate politicians are abandoning ship to secure their political career.
They had know idea of his history of shenanigans!
A millionaire playboy, has changed and capable of being Chief Commander of the USA!
But guess what the PEOPLE did, and casted a Protest Vote, and here we are today.
The Donald had 1% chance of Representing the RNC, and here is weeks before the general election.
The Senate could tilt towards the Left, leaving the house for the Republicans.
Well, two years will be here before you know it.
Let me think, which one endorsed the Donald?
What a System! I hear you DrMark Deep State Politics!
Yanis Varoufakis is dead on, whoever whens this election, the System must be democratized!
And that pertains to our partners across the Pond as well.
https://diem25.org/yanis-varou...s-to-reclaim-europe/
Just my Perspective!
Allante93!
"It is why so many Progressives found Obama to be a big nothing compared to the "Hope and Change" that was touted - nothing changed in foreign or monetary policy...just more of the same as Dubya." - Dr Mark, Most people's perception here, and certainly mine, is that Obama tried to introduce some much-needed reforms, such as some form of gun control and a healthcare system, but was constantly blocked by the Republicans.
Allante93 posted:The Donald is self destructing, and senior republicans are terrified!
Do I have any sympathy for these politicians? Nope!However, Endorsement is different from supporting the Donald, and could prove to be very risky.
Ok, I get it, separation of power checks and balances.
2nd, no-brainer, the Executive branch Hilary.
So these desperate politicians are abandoning ship to secure their political career.
They had know idea of his history of shenanigans!
A millionaire playboy, has changed and capable of being Chief Commander of the USA!
But guess what the PEOPLE did, and casted a Protest Vote, and here we are today.
The Donald had 1% chance of Representing the RNC, and here is weeks before the general election.
The Senate could tilt towards the Left, leaving the house for the Republicans.
Well, two years will be here before you know it.
Let me think, which one endorsed the Donald?
What a System! I hear you DrMark Deep State Politics!
Yanis Varoufakis is dead on, whoever whens this election, the System must be democratized!
And that pertains to our partners across the Pond as well.
https://diem25.org/yanis-varou...s-to-reclaim-europe/
Just my Perspective!
Allante93!
I still have absolutely no clue what point, if any, you are trying to make.
Sure HMACK - in a VERY abbreviated version; There is a cabal referred to informally as the "neo-conservatives" (or "neo-cons") who have become more and more influential in behind the scenes, non-elected, government positions. A prime example is Victoria Nuland, who despite the alleged huge ideological differences from administration to administration, manages to keep her high level State Dept job. Her husband is Robert Kagan, who was a founder along Dick Cheney of PNAC (now rebranded as another name - I can't recall). Other notables are Paul Wolfowitz and Carl Rove, but their influence and numbers have increased such that it is difficult to know who all the players are, and since they are not a formal organization, their boundaries can be kind of blurry.
They first started making inroads into the government in the latter part of the Reagan years. (Reagan...SO totally overrated by so many as a president.)
The basic tenet of this group is that the USA should run the world (quite literally) and of course they will be in the captain's chair. And as stated in the Wolfowitz Doctrine (which has to be watered down into the Bush Doctrine to be more palatable):
"The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role." (Emphasis added)
In other words, every other nation must agree to be a US vassal (we don't really have allies, just vassals), or be crushed...even if it is against their own legitimate national interests. The fact that Wolfowitz himself came out strongly in favor of Clinton to a German news magazine a few weeks back makes her completely and 100% un-electable to me, because she is firmly in their camp. G*d d@mn you Donald Trump. (The ONLY "good" thing about him is that they don't like him, but oh my heavens, where does that leave us.)
Basically if these people have their way (and I am fairly certain they eventually will) all nations and people will live under the umbrella of US and international corporate interests. They have ZERO problems with starting wars and murdering people, and in fact have driven much of the US' disastrous foreign policy since then. (As long as it is extending US economic control.) This is the mindset that led Madeleine Albright to say that half a million dead Iraqi children was "worth it." This shows the absence of any real moral compass, and also demonstrates that both parties (which are really one party masquerading as two...I call it the "radical center") are complicit.
They are also party to the economic piece, which of course is as (or more) essential to their plans than the military aspect. And is why we are in the economic pickle we are in (or are about to be when the defaults start to pile in.) Taking over the world is a very expensive proposition, and they have managed to run the debt for doing it so high that even owning the printing press for the world's reserve currency won't be enough. You will soon be hearing more about SDRs (Special Drawing Rights) from the IMF (Chris LaGarde is a foreign version of one of them...basically they are globalists who strongly favor the ruling class.) On Sept 30, the Chinese Yuan was added to the reserve currency basket, mostly at the expense of the Euro and the Yen...this in preparation for issuing SDRs in an attempt to ward off the inevitable. It's the last line of credit for even Central banks. So you see, American politics inextricably ties to world politics because of monetary and foreign policy, which is all these people care about.
Oh, they always tout it as spreading democracy and human rights, but that is pure, unadulterated bulls**t. It is about the money for the elites and extending US hegemony over the world.
These animals are firmly behind Clinton. She is one of them. And major war is coming after her inevitable election.
Here is an article written by one of Reagan's cabinet under-secretaries...of course he does omit that after the USSR disbanded, it was mercilessly raped by US interests in conjunction with the oligarchs, but that was also a neocon undertaking in itself. (I added the emphasis in the text.)
How The American Neoconservatives Destroyed Mankind’s Hopes For Peace
When Ronald Reagan turned his back on the neoconservatives, fired them, and had some of them prosecuted, his administration was free of their evil influence, and President Reagan negotiated the end of the Cold War with Soviet President Gorbachev. The military/security complex, the CIA, and the neocons were very much against ending the Cold War as their budgets, power, and ideology were threatened by the prospect of peace between the two nuclear superpowers.
I know about this, because I was part of it. I helped Reagan create the economic base for bringing the threat of a new arms race to a failing Soviet economy in order to pressure the Soviets into agreement to end the Cold War, and I was appointed to a secret presidential committee with subpeona power over the CIA. The secret committee was authorized by President Reagan to evaluate the CIA’s claim that the Soviets would prevail in an arms race. The secret committee concluded that this was the CIA’s way of perpetuting the Cold War and the CIA’s importance.
The George H. W. Bush administration and its Secretary of State James Baker kept Reagan’s promises to Gorbachev and achieved the reunification of Germany with promises that NATO would not move one inch to the East.
The Clinton administration violated the assurances given by the United States that had ended the Cold War. The two puppet presidents—George W. Bush and Obama—who followed the Clintons lost control of the US government to the neocons, who promptly restarted the Cold War, believing in their hubris and arrogance that History has chosen the US to exercise hegemony over the world.
Thus was mankind’s chance for peace lost along with America’s leadership of the world. Under neocon influence, the United States government threw away its soft power and its ability to lead the world into a harmonious existence over which American influence would have prevailed.
Instead the neocons threatened the world with coercion and violence, attacking eight countries and fomenting “color revolutions” in former Soviet republics.
The consequence of this crazed insanity was to create an economic and military strategic alliance between Russia and China. Without the neocons’ arrogant policy, this alliance would not exist. It was a decade ago that I began writing about the strategic alliance between Russia and China that is a response to the neocon claim of US world hegemony.
The strategic alliance between Russia and China is militarily and economically too strong for Washington. China controls the production of the products of many of America’s leading corporations, such as Apple. China has the largest foreign exchange reserves in the world. China can, if the government wishes, cause a massive increase in the American money supply by dumping its trillions of dollars of US financial assets.
To prevent a collapse of US Treasury prices, the Federal Reserve would have to create trillions of new dollars in order to purchase the dumped financial instruments. The rest of the world would see another expansion of dollars without an expansion of real US output and become skeptical of the US dollar. If the world abandoned the US dollar, the US government could no longer pay its bills.
Europe is dependent on Russian energy. Russia can cut off this energy. There are no alternatives in the short-run, and perhaps not in the long run. If Russia shuts off the energy, Germany industry shuts down. Europeans freeze to death in the winter. Despite these facts, the neocons have forced Europe to impose economic sanctions on Russia. What if Russia responded in kind?
NATO, as US military authorities admit, has no chance of invading Russia or withstanding a Russian attack on NATO. NATO is a cover for Washington’s war crimes. It can provide no other service.
Thanks to the greed of US corporations that boosted their profits by offshoring their production to China, China is modernized many decades before the neocons thought possible. China’s military forces are modernized with Russian weapons technology. New Chinese missiles make the vaunted US Navy and its aircraft carriers obsolete.
The neocons boast how they have surrounded Russia, but it is America that is surrounded by Russia and China, thanks to the incompetent leadership that the US has had beginning with the Clintons. Judging from Clinton’s support in the current presidential primaries, many voters seem determined to perpetuate incompetent leadership.
Despite being surrounded, the neocons are pressing for war with Russia which means also with China. If Clinton makes it to the White House, we could get the neocon’s war.
The neocons have flocked to the support of Killary. She is their person. Watch the feminized women of America put Killary in office. Keep in mind that Congress gave its power to start wars to the president.
The United States does not have a highly intelligent or well informed population. The US owes its 20th century dominance to World War I and World War II which destroyed more capable countries and peoples. America became a superpower because of the self-destruction of other countries.
Despite neocon denials that their hubris has created a powerful alliance against the US, a professor at the US Navy War College stresses the reality of the Russian-Chinese strategic alliance. Last August a joint Russian-Chinese sea and air exercise took place in the Sea of Japan, making it clear to America’s Japanese vassal that it was defenceless if Russia and China so decided.
The only achievements of the American neoconservatives are to destroy in war crimes millions of peoples in eight countries and to send the remnant populations fleeing into Europe as refugees, thus undermining the American puppet governments there, and to set back the chances of world peace and American leadership by creating a powerful strategic alliance between Russia and China.
This boils down to extraordinary failure. It is time to hold the neoconservatives accountable, not elect another puppet for them to manipulate.
=====================================================
Of course, the problem becomes that the other choice is a dope.
Yikes, Dr Mark. I think I need a stiff drink now. 
"This boils down to extraordinary failure. It is time to hold the neoconservatives accountable, not elect another puppet for them to manipulate"
Hobsons choice though. HC is undoubtedly going to win...Where to from there Dr Mark?
G
Now the press is finally showing Trump's really bad behavior, I'm sure they were holding on to this bomb so it couldn't be scuttled.
Is he the world's biggest jerk or what? Never has a plan, shoots from the hip, potty mouth and anger issues. He's going down in flames and tonight town hall meeting there are no set questions from a moderator. I hate this election but seeing him loose will be reward enough and I'll watch.
Sorry Dr Mark, that's a stream of meaningless rhetoric. Please try to be more concise if you wish to get your point across.
Sorry Tony - it is hard to be more concise in condensing 35 years of US back office politics - I could have just said "neocons are the most dangerous people on the planet" but then most people are not aware of their existence.
GraemeH - that is the question of the century...I don't have an answer. I guess these are my futile attempts to get someone, anyone, to see what is really happening, But the social engineering project that is the USA has left not much in the way for analytical skills in the populace. We sit at the brink of WW III, but the lead story on the news here was Kim Kardashian getting robbed in Paris. 
I feel so bad for my nieces and nephews. So many good, "regular" people are going to suffer for the actions and irresponsibility of a handful ( a few thousand perhaps at most) of evil men and women that ostensibly run this planet. And I consider the neocons the most dangerous of that lot, mainly because they are in control of the most powerful military and economy (and have the most influence as a result), so they have the most opportunity.
As my father (88 this month, and still sharp - trades options and stocks daily) says, "I've lived my life, so I will be gone when it goes down, but I worry for my grandchildren and great-grandchildren..."
I'm more of a glass-half-full type myself.
G
GraemeH posted:I'm more of a glass-half-full type myself.
G
I'm an engineer - the glass is twice as big as it needs to be!
Huge posted:GraemeH posted:I'm more of a glass-half-full type myself.
G
I'm an engineer - the glass is twice as big as it needs to be!
Ah...engineer. OK - It's a metaphor - m e t a p h o r. 
!
G
The glass may be half full, but it's leaking like a mofo!
This definitely qualifies as a 'full glass':
GraemeH posted:Huge posted:GraemeH posted:I'm more of a glass-half-full type myself.
G
I'm an engineer - the glass is twice as big as it needs to be!
Ah...engineer. OK - It's a metaphor - m e t a p h o r.
G
Is that related to camphor? 
(I'm also a chemist by training!)
Dr Mark, would you mind sharing the source of that piece? The use of 'feminized women' and 'Killary' makes me think it's, hmm, tendentious shall we say.
I also don't see how it plays against TonyM's (and my) impression of Obama as trying positive things, but being blocked by, frankly, lunatics. By that, I mean that I don't see a necessary contradiction between Obama being both domestically progressive at least in intention if not result and ineffectual at stopping (or even complicit in) the pernicious aspects of US foreign and economic policy. It'd be weird to be both those things at once, but not impossible. Which makes me the think the truth is rather more complicated than Obama being just a stooge for evil.
Dr Mark, apologies if this is not "true"!!! How many pills have you taken today?
banzai posted:Dr Mark, apologies if this is not "true"!!! How many pills have you taken today?
Not enough to make Trump's behaviour seem acceptable! 
winkyincanada posted:Allante93 posted:The Donald is self destructing, and senior republicans are terrified!
Do I have any sympathy for these politicians? Nope!However, Endorsement is different from supporting the Donald, and could prove to be very risky.
Ok, I get it, separation of power checks and balances.
2nd, no-brainer, the Executive branch Hilary.
So these desperate politicians are abandoning ship to secure their political career.
They had know idea of his history of shenanigans!
A millionaire playboy, has changed and capable of being Chief Commander of the USA!
But guess what the PEOPLE did, and casted a Protest Vote, and here we are today.
The Donald had 1% chance of Representing the RNC, and here is weeks before the general election.
The Senate could tilt towards the Left, leaving the house for the Republicans.
Well, two years will be here before you know it.
Let me think, which one endorsed the Donald?
What a System! I hear you DrMark Deep State Politics!
Yanis Varoufakis is dead on, whoever whens this election, the System must be democratized!
And that pertains to our partners across the Pond as well.
https://diem25.org/yanis-varou...s-to-reclaim-europe/
Just my Perspective!
Allante93!
I still have absolutely no clue what point, if any, you are trying to make.
Well, the 2nd debate just ended less than an hour, very dark and small.
In the end did the needle move in either direction? Nope
Did the Donald perform better? Yes
Most networks gave the victory to Hillary.
The above is how msnbc viewed the debate, and I tend to agree, but the big picture, will the Donald's performance stop the defections?
Well, I'm no expert, but the experts just pointed out the obvious, Hillary will be the 45th president, the Supreme court balance will shift for the first time in 45 years.
The Senate will favor the Democratic party, and one expert suggested that the House will shift to the Democratic party.
I may not be familiar with the political System in the UK, but looks like the experts and myself pretty much agree word for word.
Simple and Clear!
One expert Just stated my point, and the big picture, how will the Republican party survive.
Just think about this, the Donald selected his running mate, and when asked does he agree with his running mate's quoted statement, he responded we haven't spoken, and I disagree.
Wow!
Allante93!
Watching the two of them slinging insults and the patent animosity between is incredibly unpleasant. Trump comes across as a bully (and worse), and Clinton hardly appears to be a knight in shining armour.
Oh America, your political system appears horribly broken. At the mercy of money, fame and celebrity. Is really the way it should be done?
One more debate to go. The nadir may well not have been reached. More clips in the vaults that will be released as the date approaches perhaps??
Bruce
Does the world need a Kennedy type of intervention ? Most Americans think it's likely. If not imagined. Anyways he'd be too coked up to notice his top piece being separated from the rest of him.
What the USA needs to sort out it's Presidential problems is a Monarch!
(Quickly running a way and jinking to dodge the musket balls!)
Democrats won't win back the House of Representatives, but have a good chance at taking back the Senate.
Secretary Clinton is extremely likely to be our next President.
It is a HUGE pity that President Obama has to leave office - it has been nothing short of wonderful to have a grown-up as President - something we haven't had since probably Bush 1.