If you have a Naim NDS what Ethernet wire do you use?

I was an early Vodka adopter. They changed my cables after a few months (and those of a friend of mine) because they changed the design, based on advice from manufacturers, including Naim, to avoid ground loops. I had this confirmed by email last week from their Sales Manager.

I might go to the show in Hammersmith this weekend to ask in person as I note that AQ will be there and my man is very likely to be on their stand. It would also give a chance to see/hear the new Naim products.

Keith

I wonder if Naim will put their brand of Ethernet cables out?  They have power cords, interconnects and speaker cable already. You never know! 

Nigel B: thank you for your kind words. I saw the ENT consultant yesterday and he was pleased with my progress. I'm incredibly lucky because if the fracture had been 1/2mm away from where it is I would have lost the hearing in my right ear. In fact he was very surprised my hearing has improved as much as it has in six weeks, and all the blood in my middle ear has now gone. I've got lots of other challenges still, and am likely to be off work for ages, but at least I can play my music! And the fact that I can hear the impact of the little Lindy has got to be a good sign!

On the subject of Vodka cables, Audioquest told me by email a couple of weeks ago that the cable does NOT have a floating screen. As said above it's well worth trying the Lindy. I had forgotten the impact it made when I installed it and it was really surprising the difference it made when I tried to take it out again. So at least I know it's the right decision to use it. It also makes me wonder how many people are using these £300 cables and not really getting the benefit because of earthing issues that they aren't even aware of. On the other hand, maybe ignorance is bliss. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

 It also makes me wonder how many people are using these £300 cables and not really getting the benefit because of earthing issues that they aren't even aware of. On the other hand, maybe ignorance is bliss. 

Good news indeed about your hearing recovery,  best wishes for a speedy recovery with all the side effects of this unfortunate event. 

Re the above:   It's not just £300 cables,  its all the fancy & ordinary STP cables everywhere,  the £2/m from the big river for e.g..  A friend of mine has STP everywhere on his Audio/AV/Games set up - I asked him why & he said because its faster,  oh well such is myths & folklore.  I also noted he had a switch with UTP ports & when I mentioned it he said its OK because its a Gigabit,  I didn't take it further, life's too short.    

KRM posted:

I was an early Vodka adopter. They changed my cables after a few months (and those of a friend of mine) because they changed the design, based on advice from manufacturers, including Naim, to avoid ground loops. I had this confirmed by email last week from their Sales Manager.

I might go to the show in Hammersmith this weekend to ask in person as I note that AQ will be there and my man is very likely to be on their stand. It would also give a chance to see/hear the new Naim products.

Keith

Hi Keith,

I would be interested to hear the feedback you get from AQ regarding any changes in design of the Vodka (and Cinnamon for that matter) particularly if they have changed the grounding arrangements on the screen/shield. My Vodkas are a few years old so I may have the older design if indeed it was changed.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Nigel B: thank you for your kind words. I saw the ENT consultant yesterday and he was pleased with my progress. I'm incredibly lucky because if the fracture had been 1/2mm away from where it is I would have lost the hearing in my right ear. In fact he was very surprised my hearing has improved as much as it has in six weeks, and all the blood in my middle ear has now gone. I've got lots of other challenges still, and am likely to be off work for ages, but at least I can play my music! And the fact that I can hear the impact of the little Lindy has got to be a good sign!

On the subject of Vodka cables, Audioquest told me by email a couple of weeks ago that the cable does NOT have a floating screen. As said above it's well worth trying the Lindy. I had forgotten the impact it made when I installed it and it was really surprising the difference it made when I tried to take it out again. So at least I know it's the right decision to use it. It also makes me wonder how many people are using these £300 cables and not really getting the benefit because of earthing issues that they aren't even aware of. On the other hand, maybe ignorance is bliss. 

Blimey, that is scary. Thank goodness your hearing wasn't badly affected and you are recovering. I hope the old gentleman who knocked you off your bike never drives again, he is a liability.

Keith has stated that AQ suppodedly changed the design of the Vodka (not sure how) and of course they may have changed the design of the screen, but obviously AQ did not mention any of this to you. The plot thickens.

I too am just happy using the Lindy so all is good in this household.

As well as giving up his licence, he has had to surrender all his shotguns, which the police found at his house......

Hungryhalibut posted:

As well as giving up his licence, he has had to surrender all his shotguns, which the police found at his house......

Just as well you didn't challenge him after the accident, as you may have come off even worse!

Well at least he is off the road for good and can't do any more harm with his driving.

Hungryhalibut posted:

As well as giving up his licence, he has had to surrender all his shotguns, which the police found at his house......

If they were held legally and unless he's been declared mentally unfit by a psychiatrically qualified person, then that's an abuse of police powers (but it's one the police often do abuse due to political pressure).

It's perfectly OK for a blind person to shoot clays... https://www.cpsa.co.uk/news/ge...ooting-for-the-blind

musicfan51 posted:

What is the part Number on that ifi ipower Nigel? 

Google iFi and you will see details of the iPower.

Hungryhalibut posted:

As well as giving up his licence, he has had to surrender all his shotguns, which the police found at his house......

Sounds like a dangerous man HH. Glad you are recovering. And Audiophile being deaf in one ear is not a good thing! So glad your hearing has come back. Good luck to a complete recovery ! 

Ok, here's my update.

The shield on the Vodka is not floating, but earthed at the receiving end. That is why it is directional - it is earthed at the end the arrows point to.

It is recommended that the receiving end should have a metal plug. The other end doesn't matter because it isn't earthed.

So, metal at both ends is fine and metal and plastic at the send end is fine, but makes no difference. Plastic at both ends is wrong if you want to use the cable as it is designed to be used.

In Nigel's/HH's case the Lindy on the Vodka that connects to the 272 is fine, but makes no difference because there is no earth at the switch end (assuming he has the direction right). The other Lindy shouldn't be there as it makes the shield float. Apologies if I've misunderstood your setup Nigel. However, it is clearly advisable to leave them both in if you prefer the sound.

This advice comes from the guy in the States who designed the cables, relayed to me via my dealer.

Keith

Gandalf_fi posted:

I did it today again, Diamond vs. C-stream, 4th very different system, had Naim setup some time ago as well:

• QNAP NAS + Asset UPnP + Flac to Wav conversion on + all ripped lossless
• HP Switch (metal connectors)
• HDplex feeding Switch & NAS
• AQ Vodka (NAS-Switch), AQ Diamond (Switch-NDS) -> D replaced by C-stream
• Avantgarde Acoustics Duo XD speakers + Bakoon Amp (temporary) + Kondo (Japan) speaker cabling
• Powelines all around except Bakoon (better Furutech)
• NDS + 555PS (DR) + 555PS + Super Lumina

Well, you can hear the difference immediately. C is more hifi & accurate, AQ musical & flowing. You can say that C could sound better but hold on, in AQ there is more dynamics, maybe a bit more silent or darker (could be turnover to someone) but echoes starts to sound, more 3d imaging, more resolution & separation. Vocals or bass: AQ wins clearly, this is the biggest gain. I honestly tried to get rid of AQ a few times, sorry.

Ps. yesterday I also tested with reasonable CAT6 bulk cable, no go.

 

Gandalf,

Thanks for posting your findings Gandalf.  It seems that there are clearly 'character' differences between the cables, so I think, when I have a bit more time, I shall organise a trial to see what I think of the AQ's.  I've been really impressed with what the C-Stream has done for so little outlay, so if this can be improved upon still for not much more, it makes a lot of sense in the context of our systems.

All the best

Does anyone on here have the High end Chord Ethernet cables? Either the Indigo aray or Sarum aray?  Love to hear what they have to say about those cables!  They are very pricey in the USA so have not tried. It would be interesting have someone compare the AQ Diamond against the Chord Indigo aray! From reviews and what people say on here the AQ Vodka is the best SQ for the money in upgrade Ethernet cables! 

Jason posted:

Gandalf_fi posted:

I did it today again, Diamond vs. C-stream, 4th very different system, had Naim setup some time ago as well:

• QNAP NAS + Asset UPnP + Flac to Wav conversion on + all ripped lossless
• HP Switch (metal connectors)
• HDplex feeding Switch & NAS
• AQ Vodka (NAS-Switch), AQ Diamond (Switch-NDS) -> D replaced by C-stream
• Avantgarde Acoustics Duo XD speakers + Bakoon Amp (temporary) + Kondo (Japan) speaker cabling
• Powelines all around except Bakoon (better Furutech)
• NDS + 555PS (DR) + 555PS + Super Lumina

Well, you can hear the difference immediately. C is more hifi & accurate, AQ musical & flowing. You can say that C could sound better but hold on, in AQ there is more dynamics, maybe a bit more silent or darker (could be turnover to someone) but echoes starts to sound, more 3d imaging, more resolution & separation. Vocals or bass: AQ wins clearly, this is the biggest gain. I honestly tried to get rid of AQ a few times, sorry.

Ps. yesterday I also tested with reasonable CAT6 bulk cable, no go.

 

Gandalf,

Thanks for posting your findings Gandalf.  It seems that there are clearly 'character' differences between the cables, so I think, when I have a bit more time, I shall organise a trial to see what I think of the AQ's.  I've been really impressed with what the C-Stream has done for so little outlay, so if this can be improved upon still for not much more, it makes a lot of sense in the context of our systems.

All the best

I really appreciate Gandalf's postings too! Thank you Gandolf! 

KRM posted:

Ok, here's my update.

The shield on the Vodka is not floating, but earthed at the receiving end. That is why it is directional - it is earthed at the end the arrows point to.

It is recommended that the receiving end should have a metal plug. The other end doesn't matter because it isn't earthed.

So, metal at both ends is fine and metal and plastic at the send end is fine, but makes no difference. Plastic at both ends is wrong if you want to use the cable as it is designed to be used.

In Nigel's/HH's case the Lindy on the Vodka that connects to the 272 is fine, but makes no difference because there is no earth at the switch end (assuming he has the direction right). The other Lindy shouldn't be there as it makes the shield float. Apologies if I've misunderstood your setup Nigel. However, it is clearly advisable to leave them both in if you prefer the sound.

This advice comes from the guy in the States who designed the cables, relayed to me via my dealer.

Keith

The Lindy is connected to the Qnap. This is the only one I use and there are none on the cable between the switch and the 272. The email that I received from AudioQuest told me that I should use the Lindy where I'm using it, which seems opposite to the advice you were given. Goodness knows what this means. 

Sorry Keith but it does not make sense.  Even less so as  AQ say "  ....  best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player."   So if what they say about screen connected at one end is true,  the NAS and/or US do not connect their grounded RJ45 port(s) the the cable screen.    Also in that case the UTP Lindy adaptor would make no difference whatsoever,  so where does that leave HH & his SQ change with & without the Lindy.     Are you sure this guy is talking about ethernet cables ??  I know some of the AQ digital cables have a floating screen,  as do many other makes,  but ethernet ???        Sorry but I'm not prepared to accept anything until I have it confirmed by someone independent who can test a cable.  Or better still someone gives me a cable to test.   Then what about Cinnamon & Pearl,  my Pearl has a full screen.  

Well yes, it doesn't make sense to me either, and contradicts the email I received directly from AudioQuest. And I can hear a difference with the Lindy in or out, at the sending end of the cable between the Qnap and the Netgear switch, where according to Keith's info it should make no difference. But it does. 

musicfan51 posted:

Does anyone on here have the High end Chord Ethernet cables? Either the Indigo aray or Sarum aray?  Love to hear what they have to say about those cables!  They are very pricey in the USA so have not tried. It would be interesting have someone compare the AQ Diamond against the Chord Indigo aray! From reviews and what people say on here the AQ Vodka is the best SQ for the money in upgrade Ethernet cables! 

As mentioned above I compared Indigo with C-Stream, Cinnamon, Meicord and bog standard Cat5e. This was between NAS and router (I was wireless between router and NDX). The Indigo won hands down but fortunately I only needed 1.5 metres of it.

Recently a friend brought round a length of Sarum, which we tried in place of the Indigo. To me there was no qualitative sonic difference, but we both noticed the Sarum was louder. Bizarre! 

Hi Nigel,

Sorry, I did indeed misunderstand your setup. The Lindy makes no difference at the sending end so your setup is fine with or without it.

By the way, who at AQ told you to use a Lindy? My contact is the person named on the contact page of their website (the U.K. contact). It has his email address too.

Hi Mike,

We've come along way since I first reported that I could hear an improvement with these cables installed. At that time it was written off as expectation bias. Now the audible difference is so accepted it makes the product's design hard to believe.

I got this verbally from the dealer so I will write to AQ now in case the dealer or I misunderstood. I suppose it's possible the dealer got confused  as to which end the earth is.

musicfan51 posted:

Does anyone on here have the High end Chord Ethernet cables? Either the Indigo aray or Sarum aray?  Love to hear what they have to say about those cables!  They are very pricey in the USA so have not tried. It would be interesting have someone compare the AQ Diamond against the Chord Indigo aray! From reviews and what people say on here the AQ Vodka is the best SQ for the money in upgrade Ethernet cables! 

Yes, I now use a Sarum TA (not upgraded to Super ARAY as yet, hopefully in the next month) between My KDSM/1 and Melco and another between the Melco and switch. The Indigo that I previously used on the KDSM is now between switch and Devolo. Everywhere else I use C-stream (NAS to switch, Hub to Devolo).

Shortly after getting the KDS, I bought some Meicord, which was decent vfm, although not a huge improvement on standard Cat. The Indigo was, however, a revelation at a time when even talking about it here and elsewhere drew all sorts of "abuse" - pleased to see that the bits is bits assertion has died off a bit!

At the time of getting the Indigo, I did a comparison with whatever the AQ competitor was at the time (sorry, can't remember what it was called) and much preferred the Indigo, although, to be fair, I think the Chord was a bit more expensive. For what I look for in music, the Indigo just got far closer to it. If they hadn't brought out a Sarum version, I'd still happily be using Indigo, it was like the Nap 300 of the range. The C-stream is great value but if you are considering a significant investment, then you ought to compare AQ and Chord at their price points and, I'd humbly suggest, there may be broader support for Chord's range.

KRM posted:

Hi Nigel,

Sorry, I did indeed misunderstand your setup. The Lindy makes no difference at the sending end so your setup is fine with or without it.

By the way, who at AQ told you to use a Lindy? My contact is the person named on the contact page of their website (the U.K. contact). It has his email address too.

Hi Mike,

We've come along way since I first reported that I could hear an improvement with these cables installed. At that time it was written off as expectation bias. Now the audible difference is so accepted it makes the product's design hard to believe.

I got this verbally from the dealer so I will write to AQ now in case the dealer or I misunderstood. I suppose it's possible the dealer got confused  as to which end the earth is.

Hi Keith

This is what I asked them:

"I would be really grateful if you could tell me whether the Vodka Ethernet cable has a floating earth. I have two of these cables, between my nas and switch, and between the switch and my Naim streamer. As the Naim is earthed, I have been advised to lift the earth at the nas end, using a 90degree plastic adaptor, so as to ensure correct earthing. However, I've been told that if the cable has a floating earth this is not necessary. I'm not at all technical, so I hope you can advise me on this, and that I have explained the question sufficiently clearly."

And this is how they replied:

"Dear Nigel,

No it doesn't, so you'll need to use the adapter."

It may be that I asked the wrong question, but they didn't mention the earth not being connected. 

I do have an issue with what you say in your post though - "the Lindy makes no difference at the sending end"....  I can clearly hear a difference. It's very obvious. So whether it should or shouldn't make a difference, it jolly well does, so you can't say it doesn't. If that makes sense!

Dave J posted:

musicfan51 posted:

Does anyone on here have the High end Chord Ethernet cables? Either the Indigo aray or Sarum aray?  Love to hear what they have to say about those cables!  They are very pricey in the USA so have not tried. It would be interesting have someone compare the AQ Diamond against the Chord Indigo aray! From reviews and what people say on here the AQ Vodka is the best SQ for the money in upgrade Ethernet cables! 

Yes, I now use a Sarum TA (not upgraded to Super ARAY as yet, hopefully in the next month) between My KDSM/1 and Melco and another between the Melco and switch. The Indigo that I previously used on the KDSM is now between switch and Devolo. Everywhere else I use C-stream (NAS to switch, Hub to Devolo).

Shortly after getting the KDS, I bought some Meicord, which was decent vfm, although not a huge improvement on standard Cat. The Indigo was, however, a revelation at a time when even talking about it here and elsewhere drew all sorts of "abuse" - pleased to see that the bits is bits assertion has died off a bit!

At the time of getting the Indigo, I did a comparison with whatever the AQ competitor was at the time (sorry, can't remember what it was called) and much preferred the Indigo, although, to be fair, I think the Chord was a bit more expensive. For what I look for in music, the Indigo just got far closer to it. If they hadn't brought out a Sarum version, I'd still happily be using Indigo, it was like the Nap 300 of the range. The C-stream is great value but if you are considering a significant investment, then you ought to compare AQ and Chord at their price points and, I'd humbly suggest, there may be broader support for Chord's range.

Thank you for your reply Dave J. I have to see if sometime down the future I can get an Indigo aray to try. 1 meter is $1300 here in the USA, so it is not inexpensive. And I am old enough when people said all CD players should sound a like cause it is 1s and 0s. Also when I bought my first aftermarket power cord 15 years ago,  I was called crazy, it can not possibly make a difference. Now it is very accepted.