If you have a Naim NDS what Ethernet wire do you use?

James,

Which network isolator do you use? What effect do you find it has?

Thx

Following on from Mike-B's post...

One click anti-clockwise from the 200Ω position is a continuity tester, setting the switch to this position the meter will squeak when there's a low resistance between the probes (all meters I've used will also read the resistance in ohms at the same time).

Touch the probes to each ens of the screen if it squeaks the shield is connected, if not then either it isn't connected or they have fitted a 'ground lift resistor'.  If they've done that, then we'll have a whole new debate! 

I would normally use the continuity/diode test myself on my meter's for the test,   but not knowing HH's meter,  & for the benefit of those without a cont/diode test facility,   & not wishing to make a simple test instruction more complicated than need be as I doubt its a ground lift resister, it is most likely open (floating) or maybe they've used a semi-conductive layer  ...........   Whatever if there is no continuity we are in a whole bigger debate anyway,  to say nothing of questioning AQ's motives (& worse)  & why the Pearl (per my Pearl) & (per James) Forest do have end to end continuity.  

Mr Underhill posted:

James,

Which network isolator do you use? What effect do you find it has?

Thx

Baaske Medical - leftover from my Linn DS and NDX days. It just gets used as a coupler to extend the 30m of CAT5e (that snakes round the house from the study to lounge) to the Melco these days but was pretty effective with the old streamers. 

murray harden posted:

It all makes a difference alright. I started with Chord C Stream then Sarum tuned array which I subsequently had upgraded to super array. For the last 3 weeks I have been listening to the Music on the NDS with super array on the Serv. The Music is a significant improvement initially in pure hi fi terms but it's now doing what it says on the tin.  Going back to the super array told me in no uncertain terms that I'm going to have to buy it. At that point I will try one on the serv as well. Gulp

I must hear one soon!

Curiosity has got the better of me, and I've just blown the princely sum of £4.88 on a Lindy adapter. Most of my cables are Chord C-Stream, so screened....but my expectations at this point are low, and I justify this extravagance by knowing that the adapter can usefully be redeployed on my router to avoid a tight bend in the cable.

musicfan51 posted:

No one has posted a photo or part number for the Lindy that has been discussed as of yet! 

For anyone across the pond who is thinking of entering this madness, the Lindy adapter is not listed on their US site, but I did stumble across an alternative which I believe does the same thing - a search for U-R45W from Cablesonline will reveal all. And you get a choice of colours, unlike us. 

musicfan51 posted:

murray harden posted:

It all makes a difference alright. I started with Chord C Stream then Sarum tuned array which I subsequently had upgraded to super array. For the last 3 weeks I have been listening to the Music on the NDS with super array on the Serv. The Music is a significant improvement initially in pure hi fi terms but it's now doing what it says on the tin.  Going back to the super array told me in no uncertain terms that I'm going to have to buy it. At that point I will try one on the serv as well. Gulp

The Sarum Super Aray Ethernet cable is darn pricey! But I bet it makes a big difference. I want to say I want to hear one, but then I would want it. 

Given the collapse of £ against $, it would almost be criminal not to take advantage...

Assuming that the 200ohm position is the one at the bottom, when I turn the dial to that position, the readout shows 1 and a dot. When inconnect the probes to each metal end, nothing happens. (I have no high tech clamps, so have used garden string to attach the probes)  

When I do the continuity test, the readout shows just the 1, with no dot. When I connect the cable nothing happens. 

I guess this means that the shield is not connected at one end. 

If that is the case, I wonder why the Lindy makes a difference. 

Hmm - looking at the Audioquest website, up to the Vodka range, the Ethernet cables use a normal screen so i'd expect them to show continuity between the connector shields at both ends (as Mike and my cables demonstrate). With the Vodka upwards, they use 'AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System' which could mean anything, although from HH's measurements, its a very high resistance and may be designed this way so any current trying to flow in the shield finds a lower resistance path elsewhere....

Nigel - interesting. You can test your meter by touching the two probes together - the display will show 0 to to check all is ok with the meter before testing the cable. Don't worry about holding the probes (on the insulated section) and just touching each end of the cable at the same time (although i understand you may be a bit less mobile since your accident hence the string)

Hi James

The meter is fine and works as it should; it's my son's, which he uses for his electronics degree.  The string is only there so I can take the photo with the iPad and show to you lot that the probes are touching the metal ends of the lead. 

Hi Nigel - i wasn't disputing the meters provenance. Just mentioning that it's worth checking by touching the probes first as it's a check that the probe cables are in the right sockets (Your's are right) particularly if the meters been used for measuring current. Anyway i digress and thanks for doing the measurement. Good to know the string was their for artistic reasons 

James

AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System (NDS) is a multiple layers shielding technology affecting to noise floor. Nothing to do with ground loop issues.

Gandalf_fi posted:

AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System (NDS) is a multiple layers shielding technology affecting to noise floor. Nothing to do with ground loop issues.

Are you just quoting Audioquests marketing info or do you understand what they do and can explain further ? What you've said above doesn't make a lot of sense to me 

This is what AudioQuest has to say

"METAL-LAYER NOISE-DISSIPATION SYSTEM (NDS): 100% shield coverage is easy. Preventing captured RF Interference from modulating the equipment’s ground reference requires AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System. Metal and Carbon-Loaded synthetics prevent most RFI from reaching the equipment’s ground plane."

I don't believe anyone has linked this with ground issues in the thread so far, and I don't understand what point Gandalf_fi is making, or how it's helpful.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Assuming that the 200ohm position is the one at the bottom, when I turn the dial to that position, the readout shows 1 and a dot. When inconnect the probes to each metal end, nothing happens. (I have no high tech clamps, so have used garden string to attach the probes)  

When I do the continuity test, the readout shows just the 1, with no dot. When I connect the cable nothing happens. 

HH,  the meter numbers are nothing like what I would expect to see from a functional meter.

With open (nothing connected) I would expect something like  -OL- & if it was measuring continuity down an end to end screen then something like a number-decimal-more numbers    e.g.  1.123 

METAL-LAYER NOISE-DISSIPATION SYSTEM (NDS) is marketing blurb / hype (snake oil disguise)   

That's normal Mike - mine does the same as HH (some old Maplin Meter here) when the probes are open circuit. 

O ye of little faith! Get with the programme, it's a young person's multimeter....

To double check I was doing it right, I looked up the manual, and re-did the audible continuity test:

Whe I touch the probes together there is a squeaking from the meter, which I expect, because there is no resistance.

When I connect the probes to either end of the cable, there is no squeaking from the meter, which means that the resistance is greater than 30 ohms, and presumably therefore, that the screens are NOT connected.

It's this level of intellectual rigour that got me my PhD - it's just a shame it was about fish foraging behaviour rather than Ethernet cables though.

Are we are happy now that we can conclude that the screens are not connected?

Assuming that we are, that gives the dilemma of why the Lindy makes an audible difference. Perhaps it's stopping the snake oil getting through.

Could you do a video of you doing the same test Nigel, perhaps with 'What Difference Does It Make' playing in the background . Seriously though, yes you've proved the 'screen' on your particular cable isn't the same as the lower spec (directly connected end to end) cables. Anyway i'm not helping here so back to the document i should be writing whilst our lounge is ransacked to fit a new fire !

James

Mike-B posted:

METAL-LAYER NOISE-DISSIPATION SYSTEM (NDS) is marketing blurb / hype (snake oil disguise)   

Reminds me of a description of some 'high performance' plug leads i had on an old A series engine 

I've done more testing..... 

AQ cinnamon - no squeaking from multimeter, so screens NOT connected, just like the Vodka

Bog standard SSTP Cat 7 cable - squeaking from multimeter, so screens connected, which I guess is what one would expect.

So I've certainly learned something today, though with my head injury I'll have forgotten it by tomorrow. It's a good job I've recorded it here. 

The question still remains as to why the Lindy makes a difference. And as to why AudioQuest appear to be giving inconsistent messages....

Hungryhalibut posted:

... 

The question still remains as to why the Lindy makes a difference. And as to why AudioQuest appear to be giving inconsistent messages....

The Lindy adapter will make a difference if it's on the end of the cable where the screen is connected.

I suspect many people at AQ don't understand the subtlety of shielding / grounding issues either (unless they're electronics engineers).

I don't really get that - if there is no continuous screen, why would disconnecting something that isn't connected anyway make a difference? I suppose it's a question of connected at one end or neither end, but is there a difference between the two? I'm well out of my comfort zone here of course, but hopefully someone can make sense of it all. 

Nigel, yes there is a difference between connected at one end and not connected at all, but it's really hard to predict what the differences / results would be, as that depends on the devices at each end of the cable; and in detailed electronic terms, they're an unknown quantity.

Adding ferrites is similarly unpredictable in its nature.

I thought you might say that. It's strange that a £4 piece of plastic can have such an impact on the sound of a £20,000 stereo. Or perhaps the word is scary, I don't know. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I don't really get that - if there is no continuous screen, why would disconnecting something that isn't connected anyway make a difference? I suppose it's a question of connected at one end or neither end, but is there a difference between the two? I'm well out of my comfort zone here of course, but hopefully someone can make sense of it all. 

I've just had confirmation that the earth is at the receiving end of the cable. I emailed exactly what I wrote here yesterday and it is "absolutely correct". Therefore, the "Lindy effect" isn't being caused by disconnecting the earth because there isn't one. Neither is the Lindy against the advice I'm getting, but it would be if you put it at the receive end.

Keith