If you have a Naim NDS what Ethernet wire do you use?

nigelb posted:

KRM posted:

Hi Music Fan,

Correct. There cannot be ground loops (multiple grounding points) which was the original issue (I think, but it's a long way back!).

The additional points:

- AQ recommend that the cable is earthed at the receive end

- some hear have heard sound improvements when putting little plastic inserts at the NAS end which we can't explain, but that doesn't mean they aren't real and that cannot be explained by some other factor(s).

If AQ recommend that the Vodka (presumably) is earthed at the receive end which is the end where the screen is connected to the metal plug, then this implies the screen is acting as a drain wire.

Mike B, or anyone with some knowledge here please advise if my speculation about the drain screen is correct and if this an effective screen arrangement.

I think someone else commented that one of the other AQ ethernet cables (Forest?) has its screen connected to the metal plugs at BOTH ends implying one or some of the other AQ cables could suffer with ground loops from multiple earths due to their apparently different screen arrangement. If this is the case we might need to be specific about which AQ ethernet cable we are talking about in these pages.

At the risk of annoying the ravenous fish, who I think also has some AQ Cinnamon, I wonder if it is possible to do the multi meter test on Cinnamon also to see its screening ground arrangement. HH, I will perfectly understand if you are tiring of all this now.

Nigel, thete is no concept of grounding loops affecting shielding on Ethernet cables... I think some people have got confused with induced voltage from ground loops in un balanced low voltage audio lines. Similarly there is no concept of ground loops with devices individually connected to the ring mains.

Simon

Not doubting you for a moment Simon (obvs!), but can you clarify? I have individual devices (hi-fi and AV) connected to the ring mains on different wall sockets which are connected to each other (Unitiserve gain) and I get a massive earth loop which I resolve with a ground loop isolator. My NDS and switch are on different sockets. Why doesn't this result in a loop if they are earthed at both ends? Also, do you think I will understand the answer? :-)

nigelb posted:

 

............   anyone with some knowledge here please advise if my speculation about the drain screen is correct and if this an effective screen arrangement.

I think someone else commented that one of the other AQ ethernet cables (Forest?) has its screen connected to the metal plugs at BOTH ends implying one or some of the other AQ cables could suffer with ground loops from multiple earths due to their apparently different screen arrangement. If this is the case we might need to be specific about which AQ ethernet cable we are talking about in these pages.

This is all speculation - the only thing that isn't speculation is that there are no ground loops with ethernet screens, just as S-i-S has pointed out a number of times.    The problem is that with more than one ground point on a STP network is a possibility with ends of the network being on different power circuits & if a voltage difference exists & it might be a source of noise.  One ground point is an industrial standard recommendation,  but In a domestic installation it's most likely nothing to be concerned about,  it might (might) be improved with a UTP isolator or a section of UTP cable,  but .

Reading AQ words on ethernet is IMO a lot of smoke & mirrors,  marketing claptrap & all smelling of snake oil.   They recommend the cable is earthed at the "receive end",  (??)  apart from ethernet data going in both directions & its receive at all the ends;  but if we assume the receive end is the Naim streamer & its known grounded ethernet port shroud, then what.   If (if) the screen is floating at one end or is a semiconductive screen,  they need to spell it out in simple to understand language & it needs to be specific to how the screen is connected - or not - regarding the direction indicators.

I have no idea what AQ have done with the screen & further to HH tests today it really needs further investigation & some minor cable disassembly.    I know my Pearl & James's Forest has end to end screen,  we don't know about Cinnamon & Vodka.   I'm willing to take this further with my meters & tool kit if someone can supply cables - travel distance within reason.  

Dave J posted:

musicfan51 posted:

Dave J posted:

musicfan51 posted:

murray harden posted:

It all makes a difference alright. I started with Chord C Stream then Sarum tuned array which I subsequently had upgraded to super array. For the last 3 weeks I have been listening to the Music on the NDS with super array on the Serv. The Music is a significant improvement initially in pure hi fi terms but it's now doing what it says on the tin.  Going back to the super array told me in no uncertain terms that I'm going to have to buy it. At that point I will try one on the serv as well. Gulp

The Sarum Super Aray Ethernet cable is darn pricey! But I bet it makes a big difference. I want to say I want to hear one, but then I would want it. 

Given the collapse of £ against $, it would almost be criminal not to take advantage...

I would love to see Chord Prices come down in the USA! 

Do you have to buy them in the USA?

 

I live in the USA so unless you can get them in The UK for a great price and volunteer to ship them to me, probably stick to my Local dealer! 

Mike,

If you feel that strongly why don't you ask them? The couple I've met are really very nice - music lovers and hi fi nuts just like us.

Mike-B posted:

nigelb posted:

 

............   anyone with some knowledge here please advise if my speculation about the drain screen is correct and if this an effective screen arrangement.

I think someone else commented that one of the other AQ ethernet cables (Forest?) has its screen connected to the metal plugs at BOTH ends implying one or some of the other AQ cables could suffer with ground loops from multiple earths due to their apparently different screen arrangement. If this is the case we might need to be specific about which AQ ethernet cable we are talking about in these pages.

This is all speculation - the only thing that isn't speculation is that there are no ground loops with ethernet screens, just as S-i-S has pointed out a number of times.    The problem is that with more than one ground point on a STP network is a possibility with ends of the network being on different power circuits & if a voltage difference exists & it might be a source of noise.  One ground point is an industrial standard recommendation,  but In a domestic installation it's most likely nothing to be concerned about,  it might (might) be improved with a UTP isolator or a section of UTP cable,  but .

Reading AQ words on ethernet is IMO a lot of smoke & mirrors,  marketing claptrap & all smelling of snake oil.   They recommend the cable is earthed at the "receive end",  (??)  apart from ethernet data going in both directions & its receive at all the ends;  but if we assume the receive end is the Naim streamer & its known grounded ethernet port shroud, then what.   If (if) the screen is floating at one end or is a semiconductive screen,  they need to spell it out in simple to understand language & it needs to be specific to how the screen is connected - or not - regarding the direction indicators.

I have no idea what AQ have done with the screen & further to HH tests today it really needs further investigation & some minor cable disassembly.    I know my Pearl & James's Forest has end to end screen,  we don't know about Cinnamon & Vodka.   I'm willing to take this further with my meters & tool kit if someone can supply cables - travel distance within reason.  

Ah some sense at last, even though what you say still begs some questions, not least why have AQ given contradictory advice and are unclear about the screening/earthing arrangements of their Ethernet cables and installation recommendations. Maybe, like us, they are still learning. There must however be some rationale for having some of their cables grounded at both ends (Pearl & Forest) and some (we think) grounded at one end only (Vodka and Cinnamon).

I would be quite happy to let this go and enjoy what the the AQ cables (and the little Lindy) contribute to SQ. But it really would be satisfying to get to the bottom of this. Why AQ cables have different shield arrangements (allegedly), why HH and I heard an uplift in SQ with the Lindy (when there is no known explanation for this) and why AQ are so coy about revealing details of their ethenet cables in plain English.

Maybe there are no answers, maybe we should just let it go and listen to the music. It is intriguing though....

Good question Keith,  my engineering DNA makes me a sceptic & when I get into something like this I only believe what I can reserch & prove for myself,  not what I'm told.   

I'm happy to have demonstrated that the cables are not earthed at both ends, using the multimeter, but that's the point at which I'm giving up, and I'm certainly not taking them apart. I'm also now convinced that the system sounds better with the Lindy in place, though I have not the slightest idea why it should make a difference now that I know that the earth is not connected at the plug that's inserted in the Lindy. What I do know is that I'm playing a newly acquired Fred Hersch album which sounds bloody wonderful, drinking a cup of jasmine tea, following eating a very nice dal, cauliflower steamed with whole spices, and a naan bread. Next to that, Ethernet earthing pales into insignificance. 

With you all the way (unless you're wearing the slippers!).

I am. Do you want to see them again?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm happy to have demonstrated that the cables are not earthed at both ends, using the multimeter, but that's the point at which I'm giving up, and I'm certainly not taking them apart. I'm also now convinced that the system sounds better with the Lindy in place, though I have not the slightest idea why it should make a difference now that I know that the earth is not connected at the plug that's inserted in the Lindy. What I do know is that I'm playing a newly acquired Fred Hersch album which sounds bloody wonderful, drinking a cup of jasmine tea, following eating a very nice dal, cauliflower steamed with whole spices, and a naan bread. Next to that, Ethernet earthing pales into insignificance. 

Good to hear you have let it go.

Enjoy the music and the food in your comfy slippers, I say.

I must say it could just be me but, I would say my AQ Vodka made a bigger improvement than my Powerlines

greekspec2 posted:

I must say it could just be me but, I would say my AQ Vodka made a bigger improvement than my Powerlines

That says a lot!  

musicfan51 posted:

greekspec2 posted:

I must say it could just be me but, I would say my AQ Vodka made a bigger improvement than my Powerlines

That says a lot!  

my AQ Diamond cable will be here Friday, the tech said the DBS don't do much to his ears but the 100% silver wires over the Vodka is what makes the difference and the DBS is basically like a primer for the cable and can be removed

Are you selling your Vodka Ethernet cable? So jealous you are getting the Diamond. 

musicfan51 posted:

Are you selling your Vodka Ethernet cable? So jealous you are getting the Diamond. 

if I needed too or I will send it back to Best Buy for refund

a little informative write up on AQ Diamond vs Vodka

http://www.audiostream.com/con...#iIGpLl8RZ7Fuh2XE.97

It would be nice to try the Diamond. I am going to try out the AQ Vodka Ethernet !(using Cinnamon now)  But I know I would love the Diamond! Also would love to try the Chord Indigo aray!  Wish I could find someone who discounted these high end Ethernet cables! 

greekspec2 posted:

a little informative write up on AQ Diamond vs Vodka

http://www.audiostream.com/con...#iIGpLl8RZ7Fuh2XE.97

Interesting read greekspec2. Thanks!  Let us know the differences you hear with the Diamond Ethernet cable! 

Hungryhalibut posted:

This is what AudioQuest has to say

"METAL-LAYER NOISE-DISSIPATION SYSTEM (NDS): 100% shield coverage is easy. Preventing captured RF Interference from modulating the equipment’s ground reference requires AQ’s Noise-Dissipation System. Metal and Carbon-Loaded synthetics prevent most RFI from reaching the equipment’s ground plane."

I don't believe anyone has linked this with ground issues in the thread so far, and I don't understand what point Gandalf_fi is making, or how it's helpful.

 

At some post there was claiming that AQ have changed the spec of Vodka/Diamond cables, very early phase. They have not changed anything related to "grounding" which is a good thing but they have done this NDS. Believe me, I have compared so many cables, this NDS is not a snake oil, it is really audible as well. I was also pointing this NDS which might be impacting a bit why cheaper AQ cables are different. So, nothing to do with grounding, sorry about this sidetrack but personally I wanted to understand what changes was done & could it impact to grounding test but not like I said.

Sorry Gandalf, "...but they have done this NDS". What does that mean?

KRM posted:

Sorry Gandalf, "...but they have done this NDS". What does that mean?

I wondered too! 

KRM posted:

Not doubting you for a moment Simon (obvs!), but can you clarify? I have individual devices (hi-fi and AV) connected to the ring mains on different wall sockets which are connected to each other (Unitiserve gain) and I get a massive earth loop which I resolve with a ground loop isolator. My NDS and switch are on different sockets. Why doesn't this result in a loop if they are earthed at both ends? Also, do you think I will understand the answer? :-)

Keith, no worries, an 'earth loop' is simply where a conductive loop has induced into tiny voltage from  the low level ambient electromagnetic field in your house/office... this is typically the mains. It manifests itself in many ways in where there is some sort of loop and it totally benign... 

The issue is where this loop is actually part of a circuit carrying a signal that is then amplified.. this can happen with low level unbalanced audio connections.. this is where the signal ground or return forms a conductive loop and a low level voltage is induced onto it such as a 50/60Hz signal. As the lead is unbalanced this signal gets induced to the the audio signal and we hear as mains hum.

Now with balanced audio leads, where such a loop may occur on the shield, because the signal return is isolated from this loop, no voltage is induced in the return and you hear no mains hum.

This happens for Cat10/100/1000BaseT Ethernet leads as well.. by specification standards and design they use galvanically isolated balanced connectors for the data signals. This means any induced signal such as VLF earth loop voltage or extraneous RF voltage is rejected on the signal itself, (as it applies to both sides of the balanced pairs and so the signal is not compromised) . Therefore if the lead uses a shield and forms a conductive loop, then a natural low level voltage will be most likely induced in it..however by design because the signal is carried in balanced signal pairs seperate from this shield  it becomes inconsequential. (Just like the balancedaudio lead)

Does Audioquest produce these cables? or buys them and patches them? 

I believe a good cable makes a difference what ever electricity/analog/digital. I use best i can. 

But looking at the Diamond vs top range cables the price difference is out of balance. 

They are using TELEGARTNERs for sure and maybe a third party cat7 cable... what are they adding to the game other then nice box, marketing, unexplainable " tighter bass, open stage, more detail etc"  effects and a price tag! and What a tag it is!!!

But tell the truth even i am inclined to buy one, saying what if....  but my logic stops me. Then one of you guys says it is great and got me all confused, i can not try test them, we don't have best buy. 

Aren't Vodka and Diamond just fancy cables with 2€ per metre good quality cat7 cables plus 15€ each TELEGARTNERS put together?

Can you tell them apart when you listen them in a blink test? did anyone tried? 

Emre posted:

Does Audioquest produce these cables? or buys them and patches them? 

I believe a good cable makes a difference what ever electricity/analog/digital. I use best i can. 

But looking at the Diamond vs top range cables the price difference is out of balance. 

They are using TELEGARTNERs for sure and maybe a third party cat7 cable... what are they adding to the game other then nice box, marketing, unexplainable " tighter bass, open stage, more detail etc"  effects and a price tag! and What a tag it is!!!

But tell the truth even i am inclined to buy one, saying what if....  but my logic stops me. Then one of you guys says it is great and got me all confused, i can not try test them, we don't have best buy. 

Aren't Vodka and Diamond just fancy cables with 2€ per metre good quality cat7 cables plus 15€ each TELEGARTNERS put together?

Can you tell them apart when you listen them in a blink test? did anyone tried? 

 

Emre, you don't have a dealer that will let you try either Audioquest or Chord Ethernet cables and return them if you do not like the results?  Best way to find out if it makes a difference in SQ in your system is to try them!