If you have a Naim NDS what Ethernet wire do you use?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm getting confused - are you saying that the Lindy thingy that you suggested I use is not really necessary after all? I use it between the switch and the nas, at the nas end. 

The forum jury is still out but I'm satisfied one ground is best, not critical, just best;  my old trade work practices said one ground to avoid ground loops & any voltage potential across different ethernet grounds & that includes power circuit faults.  The powerpoint that Simon has found contradicts this & claims "myth busted",  however the more professional installation manuals do say that one ground is required, but they don't say multiple grounds are a no-no other than avoiding voltage potentials between them such as we might (maybe might) find with ethernet ends on different power circuits .  

But getting back to you,  now you have a Vodka (cheers, ice & tonic please) ,  I have exchanged a post today with KRM about the possibility that Vodka has a floating screen,  I can't find anything on AQ's www & KRM is getting the answer from his dealer when he returns from getting married.  If that is the case & its proven,  then you can drop the Lindy.   But why not try it now,  £3 wobbling around on £200 etc..  although the other Nigel says its a precaution (above) & rightly so,  it won't do anything that's so bad,  & you never know, your ears might tell you more than forum discussions ever can.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I remember when someone on here (it may have been Harry) bought some Vodka cables and I was very negative about them, saying that they simply could not make a difference and that the owner was deluded.

Yeah, I remember that too Nigel. But salvation came in the same thread when it was expertly vouchsafed to me that my system was fundamentally broken. I really must get around to fixing it, when I can tear myself away from all my fundamentally broken music.

Been there, taken the abuse, don't tend to contribute now. I know what my ears tell me and I don't post unless I have personal experience. The topic title contains two terms that I am qualified to speak about from experience: NDS and Ethernet cable. Contribution made. Moved on. But I am grateful for someone acknowledging my past pain Makes it all worth it. Nearly.

Funny how some of the shit slingers (not you Nigel) who were happy to hurl derision are now in the "I-don't-know-why-but-there-is-a-difference-so-go-figure" camp. Ears first ladies and gentlemen, it's the only way.

Thanks Harry, I'm not entirely losing it then. I've been told by the hospital to try to remember things that I find difficult, and this was one of those exercises....

Now my right ear is working a bit more, I can more clearly hear the improvent Vodka makes over Cinnamon, which is reassuring. As I've said before I have no real desire to know why these wires make a difference, and when anyone does try to explain it, it generally goes over my head. 

Jason posted:

Well, I have read this thread with interest since the start and never really thought about the effect of Ethernet cables until I saw this.

Since installing my streaming solution (Synology Nas >> Netgear GS-105 switch >> NDS/555PS, all linked via home terminated QED 5e FTP cable), I have been using fairly standard cabling and a standard Belkin patch lead between the NDS and an Ethernet wall socket.

I did try a few ferrite chokes which brought a very small benefit but left everything else as it was...until I read this!

I figured that if there was a benefit to be had with a better patch lead, then I should hopefully notice a difference with the NDS, so decided, after a little research, to try a Chord C Stream.  The theory being that if I heard a benefit with a cheaper 'purpose built' cable, I could try some more exotic cables when funds permit and I have more time to try all the alternatives.

Well, this afternoon, the Chord cable arrived.  I sat down and listened to a couple of tracks with my current set up before swapping over to the Chord.  I'm not going to try and provide a vast descriptive analysis here, but suffice to say that there was an immediate and noticeable benefit; in summary, less noise, more detail with less hash and a more refined sound.

I was sceptical if I'm honest, but curiosity has resulted in a very cost effective (£40) upgrade.  To say I'm pleased at the result for the money is an understatement ��

Thank you to the OP and all those who posted their findings, it made interesting reading and lead to a very satisfactory and cheap upgrade!

Jason do you think The Chord C stream sounds better better than Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet cable ? 

Harry posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I remember when someone on here (it may have been Harry) bought some Vodka cables and I was very negative about them, saying that they simply could not make a difference and that the owner was deluded.

Yeah, I remember that too Nigel. But salvation came in the same thread when it was expertly vouchsafed to me that my system was fundamentally broken. I really must get around to fixing it, when I can tear myself away from all my fundamentally broken music.

Been there, taken the abuse, don't tend to contribute now. I know what my ears tell me and I don't post unless I have personal experience. The topic title contains two terms that I am qualified to speak about from experience: NDS and Ethernet cable. Contribution made. Moved on. But I am grateful for someone acknowledging my past pain Makes it all worth it. Nearly.

Funny how some of the shit slingers (not you Nigel) who were happy to hurl derision are now in the "I-don't-know-why-but-there-is-a-difference-so-go-figure" camp. Ears first ladies and gentlemen, it's the only way.

 

Exactly! I tried it and it sounded great! My wife thought this is a crazy experiment, yet readily agreed there was a noticeable sound quality improvement! 

How much improvement is the Vodka over the Cinnamon? 

It's not big, it's large. 

P.S. Glad to hear you are progressing well with your recovery Nigel. And P.P.S. plenty of people took stick in here over Ethernet cables.

Right. I'll climb down off my cross now and shut up.

Oh, but before I go: I like the clarity of AQ and this kind of "clear as a bell" like clarity was something which seems to have come through in their Ethernet cables. How so I don't know and care even less.  But sometimes it maybe rings with overly sharp clarity. This is why I spent my DAC days constantly switching between AQ and Chord digital interconnect with no clear winner emerging. And so it has been with Ethernet.  The NDS-CStream-switch-Vodka-QNAP pipe sounds best to me. I thought having Vodka both sides of the switch was good but just a bit borderline sharp at times. A don't think any of the attack or detail has been lost using CStream but it has somehow smoothed out. It's probably mostly in my head anyway. I'd be the first to admit that possibility

musicfan51 posted:

How much improvement is the Vodka over the Cinnamon? 

I have Vodka and Cinnamon in my LAN with the pricey Vodka reserved for the links between NDS and switch and between UnitiServe and switch and Cinnamon from router to switch and from iMac to router. That latter link is less important but I have some Cinnamon left over. The introduction of the Vodka (replacing Cinnamon) brought about some subtle but audible improvements but it was a long time ago so I can't be specific. Whether the considerable extra cost of Vodka vs Cinnamon is worth it, is up for debate (and depth of pockets I suspect).

I am not sure I would take a 'punt' on a long length of Vodka. Maybe try to see if you can borrow some Vodka and Cinnamon and compare the two before parting with your hard-earned. Cinnamon is less risky and to me is a clear step up without the huge outlay.

nigelb posted:

musicfan51 posted:

How much improvement is the Vodka over the Cinnamon? 

I have Vodka and Cinnamon in my LAN with the pricey Vodka reserved for the links between NDS and switch and between UnitiServe and switch and Cinnamon from router to switch and from iMac to router. That latter link is less important but I have some Cinnamon left over. The introduction of the Vodka (replacing Cinnamon) brought about some subtle but audible improvements but it was a long time ago so I can't be specific. Whether the considerable extra cost of Vodka vs Cinnamon is worth it, is up for debate (and depth of pockets I suspect).

I am not sure I would take a 'punt' on a long length of Vodka. Maybe try to see if you can borrow some Vodka and Cinnamon and compare the two before parting with your hard-earned. Cinnamon is less risky and to me is a clear step up without the huge outlay.

If you only did one Vodka cable (at the switch to NDS) and the rest Cinnamon Ethernet is that the way to go that you get improvement but don't break the bank? And you still get improvement ? 

I suspect the most vital link is between NDS and switch. So if you can only afford one length of posh ethernet cable, then this is where I would put it. You will still hear the benefit of one length of Vodka between this link IMHO, but the cost very much depends on the length of this link in your system. So weirdly, VFM might be dependent on how far your streamer is from your switch.

Digital is indeed a strange world for us weened on all things analog!

I found mixing the cables seemed to work best for me. As mentioned earlier, when I tried 2 vodkas the sound was less good than vodka and meicord combo.

Mr Happy posted:

I found mixing the cables seemed to work best for me. As mentioned earlier, when I tried 2 vodkas the sound was less good than vodka and meicord combo.

I may ask my Chord dealer price on C Stream from Chord! Mix it with the cinnamon ! But maybe I can return the Cinnamon and get one Vodka Ethernet cable! 

musicfan51 posted:

Mr Happy posted:

I found mixing the cables seemed to work best for me. As mentioned earlier, when I tried 2 vodkas the sound was less good than vodka and meicord combo.

I may ask my Chord dealer price on C Stream from Chord! Mix it with the cinnamon ! But maybe I can return the Cinnamon and get one Vodka Ethernet cable! 

You might be better off mixing either Chord or AQ rather than mixing both. Chord C Stream appears to be good VFM and they also make posh and very posh ethernet cables if you want to mix and match.

I have a NDX/DAC/555.  My wiring installer (certified B&O, FWIW) insisted I try terminating the long, in-wall rated CAT-5e and CAT-6 runs to male, to make as few termination points as possible between the NDX, switch and NAS.  Coupling to a meter of e.g. Vodka, or adding an unneeded switch as a coupler both strike me as odd, and introduces more points of potential failure.  If the sound were improved, what could be the reason?  Do the switch and short cable added near the NDx provide beneficial isolation or buffering?

Cheap enough to try, myself.  I will report back after I secure necessary materials.

Nick

All this seems a veritable fountain of misinformation as to how Ethernet networks work. If you are not adding latency (switching) or errors it is an incredibly robust electrical standard that can handle wide deviations in voltage/current and impedance differential over the run. A off the shelf true cat 6E or 7 cable deliveres the information to the remote host with exactly the same accuracy as any very precious snakeoil ltd brand cable

DUPREE posted:

All this seems a veritable fountain of misinformation as to how Ethernet networks work. If you are not adding latency (switching) or errors it is an incredibly robust electrical standard that can handle wide deviations in voltage/current and impedance differential over the run. A off the shelf true cat 6E or 7 cable deliveres the information to the remote host with exactly the same accuracy as any very precious snakeoil ltd brand cable

So you tried better Ethernet cables on your Naim streamer?  You haven't?  Well try it first,  then you can tell us we are all crazy!  We were skeptical too. But I wanted to try it to hear for myself! 

From router to switch standard cable supplied with the router. From PC to switch Meicord Opal. From switch to NDS Meicord Opal.

Does anyone sell Meicord brand of Ethernet cables in the USA? 

Audioquest Ethernet cables pt.2 | The Ear

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=revi...%20ethernet%20cables

A review of meicord Ethernet cable

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.c...-network-cables.html

Is the quality of the termination at the ND the determining factor?  That would be logical to me.  

Or do these ideas only apply where the main switch is close to the ND; mine is on a different floor, a foot from the NAS.

I do not doubt positive experiences related by my forum friends, but I do wonder if my configuration will diqualify me from benefiting, as I would be inserting an extension where it is not physically needed.

Nick

Mike, in response to your post a little while back, although with the test I referenced there was no or minimal noise difference floating and single end grounded screening, it did suggest it was best practice to ground at one end ... I assume for safety and fault condition reasons..

Nigelb, both Cate 5e and Cat6 can come in either screened or unscreened variants. There are  severeal different geometries for screening... but essentially if the construction code UTP or U/UTP then it won't be screened.

I use a standard professional shielded and rather stiff Cat6 (floating shield in my setup) lead with a ferrite choke at the streamer end to feed my streamer from a Cisco 2960. This was a worthwhile improvement over using a non shielded Cat5e lead and feeding from a Netgear switch.. the benefits in the rendered audio were that it sounded more flowing, intricate and natural with no digital sounding highlight or glare.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike, in response to your post a little while back, although with the test I referenced there was no or minimal noise difference floating and single end grounded screening, it did suggest it was best practice to ground at one end ... I assume for safety and fault condition reasons..

Nigelb, both Cate 5e and Cat6 can come in either screened or unscreened variants. There are  severeal different geometries for screening... but essentially if the construction code UTP or U/UTP then it won't be screened.

I use a standard professional shielded and rather stiff Cat6 (floating shield in my setup) lead with a ferrite choke at the streamer end to feed my streamer from a Cisco 2960. This was a worthwhile improvement over using a non shielded Cat5e lead and feeding from a Netgear switch.. the benefits in the rendered audio were that it sounded more flowing, intricate and natural with no digital sounding highlight or glare.

Simon

Ahh, so it is the floating screen which means you don't have to concern yourself with multiple grounding points.

Are you able to give an idea of how much both the Cisco router and the Cat6 cabling each contributed to the improvement. Did one have more influence than the other. I know some of these questions are difficult to answer and the two might be working in tandem, but I though you might have an idea.

Nigel its hard to a measure on it as you suggest - but it was sufficient for me to go a little out of my way to get it set up... the netgear switch perhaps to me was the most significant ... but I have changed firmwares since then - and the streamer firmwares do seem to be differently sensitive to network timing - where as the cables and the subsequent RF loading of the driving and receiving electronics is perhaps more consistent. I have also now decoupled my DAC from my streamer and that also seems to lessen the effects to a degree... but you have probably read my ramblings on this already on the forum. (system decoupling).

As far as multiple groundings - for a typical home environment - I don't think you need to concern yourself with multiple groundings - more a constraint in a very large deployment with quite different earth potentials... the link I gave earlier showed that an induced current (or in its case applied current) on the shield in their tests had no impact on the integrity of the twisted pairs of the ethernet patch cable. The article also showed that in its tests - there was no real difference in noise in the ethernet lead between floating and grounded shield - but it did suggest to ground at least one end - I am sure that is sensible in commercial setups for safety reasons - for me it doesn't feel relevant for my single application of a screened patch lead to my streamer in my home.

Simon