If you have a Naim NDS what Ethernet wire do you use?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Nigel its hard to a measure on it as you suggest - but it was sufficient for me to go a little out of my way to get it set up... the netgear switch perhaps to me was the most significant ... but I have changed firmwares since then - and the streamer firmwares do seem to be differently sensitive to network timing - where as the cables and the subsequent RF loading of the driving and receiving electronics is perhaps more consistent. I have also now decoupled my DAC from my streamer and that also seems to lessen the effects to a degree... but you have probably read my ramblings on this already on the forum. (system decoupling).

As far as multiple groundings - for a typical home environment - I don't think you need to concern yourself with multiple groundings - more a constraint in a very large deployment with quite different earth potentials... the link I gave earlier showed that an induced current (or in its case applied current) on the shield in their tests had no impact on the integrity of the twisted pairs of the ethernet patch cable. The article also showed that in its tests - there was no real difference in noise in the ethernet lead between floating and grounded shield - but it did suggest to ground at least one end - I am sure that is sensible in commercial setups for safety reasons - for me it doesn't feel relevant for my single application of a screened patch lead to my streamer in my home.

Simon

 

Firstly apologies to the OP for this slight hijack of this thread.

SIS, thanks for the explanation. I have a Netgear switch (a GS105 that cost me £23 from memory) and am interested in replacing it with a switch that has the potential to improve SQ. My problem is that my technical knowledge is very limited and I believe the Cisco 2960 is a managed switch and possibly beyond my expertise to set up and get the best from it. Is there a reasonably priced unmanaged switch that you could point me to - possibly an unmanaged Cisco switch?

I'm with NigelB here. I'd be happy to explore a better switch, but the managed bit worries me. I want to be able to plug it in and turn it on, just like the GS105. I think I read somewhere that the 2960 could work unmanaged as well as managed. Maybe I'm wrong though. So, Simon, if you could advise two Nigels, that would be wonderful. Maybe we could find a Cisco two for one offer. 

NigelB -if I may put things in perspective - theses really are  verging on the OCD side of tweakings  and optimisations by me - but if you are ok with that and accept sometimes the results are not what you expect  - then please proceed and experiment - I actually enjoy tweaking sometimes 

Now if you want to experiment using a different Switch such as the Cisco 2960  (they use bespoke ASICs) then get a used one from a popular  auction site - they really are so popular in the commercial world - used they can be often be picked up of next to nothing... Now here is the risk - from new or if a factory reset has been applied (via the management interface) they will just work like a simple unconfigurable switch - but if they have not been factory reset by the seller you don't know what state it is in.. so I would ask the seller to do this for you..

You can of course do what you want with it yourself - but you need to connect to the switch - and that often requires a serial or USB lead if not set up correctly - so best get the seller to do it for you.

Simon

nigelb posted:

...........   a reasonably priced unmanaged switch that you could point me to - possibly an unmanaged Cisco switch?

Sorry to cut across,  but the Cisco unmanaged switches that are eq/similar to your Netgear GS105 are also OEM chipset items.   Plus I looked into this a year or so back & asked an IT guy (own business)  about the same & he advised again changing the GS105 & was very uncomplimentary about the small Cisco's saying they have become unreliable (he blamed Linksys involvement) & he has stopped using them.  He did say the pro level switches remain thee top notch ones to have & tried very hard to flog me one - unfortunately it was an 8 port & with an extra 2 or 3 ports it was too big for my switch space.

Ummm….this kind of tweaking (or is it tinkering) is probably a little beyond me and may well not lead to any real benefit. Additionally, with words of warning from both SIS and MikeB, I think I will leave well alone as I am not experiencing any problems and my network is rock steady (I know I should not tempt fate). 

Thank you both for the advice - invaluable as usual

Sounds like good advice from Mike - its specifically the Cisco Catalyst type switches I have found to be good - such as the 2960 series. I wouldn't assume just because it says its 'Cisco' its better with the unmanaged/OEM devices..

Nigelb just seen your post - yes I guess with this sort of optimisation you should ideally know what you are doing - if you don't or are not sure then that is why we have people like Melco out there to help - albeit for a few pounds....

and just seen Nigel as in HH's post - Nigel does my suggestion to Nigelb answer your query?

Simon

Since I have a used 2960 winging its way to me from down south I should be able to let everyone in a day or two know. What will be interesting is that I have been running my switches off of linear power supplies, and the Cisco will just be plugged into the wall - different circuit from the hifi, but one with other smps gear (tv etc) plugged into it. The Cisco is kind of huge for the hifi set up, so if I don't notice much or any difference I will have use for it for the main house/network switch that is currently a maxed out 8 port netgear in the basement closet. 

musicfan51 posted:

Jason posted:

Well, I have read this thread with interest since the start and never really thought about the effect of Ethernet cables until I saw this.

Since installing my streaming solution (Synology Nas >> Netgear GS-105 switch >> NDS/555PS, all linked via home terminated QED 5e FTP cable), I have been using fairly standard cabling and a standard Belkin patch lead between the NDS and an Ethernet wall socket.

I did try a few ferrite chokes which brought a very small benefit but left everything else as it was...until I read this!

I figured that if there was a benefit to be had with a better patch lead, then I should hopefully notice a difference with the NDS, so decided, after a little research, to try a Chord C Stream.  The theory being that if I heard a benefit with a cheaper 'purpose built' cable, I could try some more exotic cables when funds permit and I have more time to try all the alternatives.

Well, this afternoon, the Chord cable arrived.  I sat down and listened to a couple of tracks with my current set up before swapping over to the Chord.  I'm not going to try and provide a vast descriptive analysis here, but suffice to say that there was an immediate and noticeable benefit; in summary, less noise, more detail with less hash and a more refined sound.

I was sceptical if I'm honest, but curiosity has resulted in a very cost effective (£40) upgrade.  To say I'm pleased at the result for the money is an understatement ��

Thank you to the OP and all those who posted their findings, it made interesting reading and lead to a very satisfactory and cheap upgrade!

Jason do you think The Chord C stream sounds better better than Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet cable ? 

Hi Musicfan51,

I'm afraid the only comparison I have made at present is with a cheap basic Belkin patch lead, nothing more.  I haven't tried any of the Audioquest cables, but I may well do at some point in the future...they do seem a popular choice.

I would recommend the cables that Cymbiosis use in there establishment. Ring Phil and ask him? I use similar cables at home

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Sounds like good advice from Mike - its specifically the Cisco Catalyst type switches I have found to be good - such as the 2960 series. I wouldn't assume just because it says its 'Cisco' its better with the unmanaged/OEM devices..

Nigelb just seen your post - yes I guess with this sort of optimisation you should ideally know what you are doing - if you don't or are not sure then that is why we have people like Melco out there to help - albeit for a few pounds....

and just seen Nigel as in HH's post - Nigel does my suggestion to Nigelb answer your query?

Simon

Thanks Simon, and yes it does. My conclusion, having carefully assessed the pros and cons, is that I will do nothing at all. Everything works, sounds good, and I know what to do if anything goes awry. 

I'm intrigued to know whether to ditch the Lindy though. I've written to AudioQuest to ask them if the wire has a floating earth, not that I'll know what to do with their answer.... Ask on here I guess. 

What's a Lindy (coupler I'm guessing)? What do your ears 'say' if you take it out? 

If you haven't compared switches you should, and a linear power supply could make a big difference. Getting one like an HDPLEX is the best investment as it has four rails that can run different voltages so is versatile in changing out (I wouldn't run more than two lower voltage and one high off of it though). Or just el-cheap-o at the voltage you need from China, what I run my Vortexbox off and seems to do the job. 

I think that for a portion of what your black boxes cost you can optimize your network and power, and take your system to the next level. The microrendu and basic but not outrageous optimization of the cabling and power around it has taken me up to NDX/NDS levels for not a lot of money. All told, my complete system, from Vortexbox to speakers, cost around $8k, as it stands, including electrician for dedicated circuit. Part of it is careful shopping for used and seconds, but also the optimization of the network and power cabling of the boxes has taken it far beyond what it should (and first did) sound like. To me that's what makes this hobby fun. 

The problem I have at the moment is that my right ear, although starting to work, is a long way from fully functioning. I always find these very tiny adjustments hard to assess so in many ways I'm happy to be told what to do in this instance. I have an ifi iPower on my little Netgear switch, which seems to have cleaned up the sound. The only reason I'm questioning the Lindy is because its connection to the Qnap seems a bit floppy. I'll see what AudioQuest have to say. 

In the one Meicord Ethernet review it was mentioned that you do not want to mix shield and unshielded Ethernet cords. Why would that be? 

I really can't think of any technical reason...

musicfan51 posted:

In the one Meicord Ethernet review it was mentioned that you do not want to mix shield and unshielded Ethernet cords. Why would that be? 

If you are coupling two cables together passively or I guess maybe in theory through a hub and there is a great deal of interference, you lose most of the benefit from shielding, it isn't like a shielded cable is going to filter out noise from earlier on in the electrical path.

Do you think the Audioquest Ethernet cables have any burn in time or do they change at all as you play  music ?  Or maybe the switch changes in sound quality? Music sounds a tad softer tonight as we were listening to it! I was Just wondering . 

musicfan51 posted:

Do you think the Audioquest Ethernet cables have any burn in time or do they change at all as you play  music ?  Or maybe the switch changes in sound quality? Music sounds a tad softer tonight as we were listening to it! I was Just wondering . 

Yes, I found they got better over a few weeks. They sounded great from cold though, but over a few weeks the sound seemed to relax a little and flow better.

I actually thought the new Ethernet cables &  switch sounded better Friday night in the system not quite as good tonight, a touch softer in sound quality or something, my wife noticed it too, but said don't panic as she looked at me, (smart of her to say) cause you have put in cables & equipment before and they have gone on a roller coaster of ups and downside sound quality ! (She has heard me say before ....hey that doesn't sound as good today, what the heck is going on ?)  Plus there is a small possibility power supply of switch changed a bit over night!  Heck I don't know, but I will let it play another few days to see what it does. Just crazy how it changed the sound. Thanks for reply! 

Mr Happy posted:

musicfan51 posted:

Do you think the Audioquest Ethernet cables have any burn in time or do they change at all as you play  music ?  Or maybe the switch changes in sound quality? Music sounds a tad softer tonight as we were listening to it! I was Just wondering . 

Yes, I found they got better over a few weeks. They sounded great from cold though, but over a few weeks the sound seemed to relax a little and flow better.

I let it play for aprox. 10 hours at low level and I just went and turned up the volume. Played a few songs and that funk it was in, ....seems to have disappeared! No longer does it sound too soft, at least after playing two songs!  I am using Kef Blade twos and they are pretty revealing to even small changes! Though I bet most of you have equally as revealing speakers and systems if not more so!  But that soft funk it was in for a bit seems to have disappeared! Yea! Weird huh. Back to sounding great again. 

Mike-B posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm getting confused - are you saying that the Lindy thingy that you suggested I use is not really necessary after all? I use it between the switch and the nas, at the nas end. 

The forum jury is still out but I'm satisfied one ground is best, not critical, just best;  my old trade work practices said one ground to avoid ground loops & any voltage potential across different ethernet grounds & that includes power circuit faults.  The powerpoint that Simon has found contradicts this & claims "myth busted",  however the more professional installation manuals do say that one ground is required, but they don't say multiple grounds are a no-no other than avoiding voltage potentials between them such as we might (maybe might) find with ethernet ends on different power circuits .  

But getting back to you,  now you have a Vodka (cheers, ice & tonic please) ,  I have exchanged a post today with KRM about the possibility that Vodka has a floating screen,  I can't find anything on AQ's www & KRM is getting the answer from his dealer when he returns from getting married.  If that is the case & its proven,  then you can drop the Lindy.   But why not try it now,  £3 wobbling around on £200 etc..  although the other Nigel says its a precaution (above) & rightly so,  it won't do anything that's so bad,  & you never know, your ears might tell you more than forum discussions ever can.

Mike, I hope that you and KRM see this -  I have had a very clear email back from Audioquest stating that the Vodka does NOT have a floating earth and that to ensure correct earthing the Lindy adaptor should be used at the NAS. That's that sorted then - my £215 wire will have the £3 Lindy on the end and I will forget all about it. 

 

Mike, I hope that you and KRM see this -  I have had a very clear email back from Audioquest stating that the Vodka does NOT have a floating earth and that to ensure correct earthing the Lindy adaptor should be used at the NAS. That's that sorted then - my £215 wire will have the £3 Lindy on the end and I will forget all about it. 

And if you don't have 'correct' earthing (Ie take the Lindy out of circuit) does it make any difference to the SQ ?

james n posted:

 

Mike, I hope that you and KRM see this -  I have had a very clear email back from Audioquest stating that the Vodka does NOT have a floating earth and that to ensure correct earthing the Lindy adaptor should be used at the NAS. That's that sorted then - my £215 wire will have the £3 Lindy on the end and I will forget all about it. 

And if you don't have 'correct' earthing (Ie take the Lindy out of circuit) does it make any difference to the SQ ?

That is what I'd like to know !   ???

When I put the Lindy in, using Cinnamon, the sound seemed to get a bit clearer, and following the advice of Audioquest I'm not going to take it out. Anyone who wants to try to identify the difference can, I'm sure, stump up the £3 for the Lindy.