Best way to integrate Qobuz into a Naim system

Posted by: Goon525 on 01 October 2016

There have been a number of discussions in the past on this - such as the now closed (why?):-

https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/how-to-qobuz

But these haven't resolved matters for me. I have recently, after much wavering between Tidal and Qobuz, decided to support the latter, and I've bought a Sublime subscription at a useful discount. My main reason is Qobuz including access to CD booklets, very important  for the classical that is the bulk of my listening, but useful for all genres.

For some time I've used Qobuz via iPad/iPhone apps connecting to an Apple TV device via Airplay over wifi, then by digital output into my SU. This works pretty well, but can occasionally suffer from interference, and the quality is limited by the rather Heath Robinson route for the music. Noting that the estimable Simon-in-Suffolk doesn't think proper Qobuz integration by Naim is likely any time soon, I've now decided to consider other ways to create a wired connection to the system for Qobuz.

I've tried a Mac (actually a MacBook Pro, but if I wanted to do this permanently would buy a MacMini to use headless), using one of the apps designed to run a Mac remotely from iPad or iPhone - but I didn't like it. It creates a complicated sequence of apps to open to play music, and actual control of the screen is a bit fiddly, and resolution not that great. So not the solution for me.

In the 'How to Qobuz' thread above, there were references to using something called uPnP Bubble on a Synology NAS. By good fortune, I happen to use a Synology NAS hard wired into my system. But I lack an understanding of how this would work, whether it would give the hard-wired solution I seek, and how it's controlled in use. If anyone is using this and understands it, I'd be really grateful for an explanation!

My other option would seem to be buying either an Auralic Aries Mini or a Bluesound Node 2. Both of these devices have been well reviewed, and both claim Qobuz integration - though one thing I don't yet know is whether if one is using the Auralic or Bluesound control apps, one still has access to the booklets.

At this point I'm willing to invest a bit of money to resolve things, though it goes against the grain to buy the Auralic or Bluesound devices which largely duplicate functionality which I already have on the SU (and theoretically at a higher quality level). I'd very much welcome contributions before I make a final decision.

Posted on: 01 October 2016 by trickydickie

The Bubble route should work well.  I used it with Tidal before I had my NDX streamer board upgraded.  I haven't tried it with Qobuz but it is supported and works in the same way.

What Bubble does is that it exposes your Naim streamer on your network as an OpenHome renderer.  OpenHome is a standard supported by some manufacturers including Linn.  Once you have an OpenHome renderer on your network you can use OpenHome supported control software on your iPad/Android tablet to send music to your Naim streamer.  I used the Linn's Kazoo which is free.

Once you have Bubble running and you are using the Linn software your Naim streamer behaves just like a Linn streamer!  As Kazoo supports Tidal and Qobuz it allows you to use these services, somthing that the Naim software doesn't allow

It's pretty simple to setup.

You install Bubble UPNP server on your NAS drive.  Once installed you configure Bubble by opening the configuration page (there should be a way of accessing this from your Synology page) and access the Media Renderers tab and select your Naim streamer to be used as an OpenHome renderer.

Then install Kazoo on your tablet.  It should find the Openhome Naim streamer and then you can enter your QoBuz logon details in and away you go!

I would try this before spending money on something else, it works well and doesn't cost anything except for a little time to setup.

RIchard

Posted on: 01 October 2016 by Goon525

Many thanks, Richard. Looks like I have to give it a go!

Posted on: 02 October 2016 by ChrisByrd

I find BubbleUPnP Server works well on my MacBook Pro for Tidal and Qobuz - I prefer Qobuz for the same reasons as you.  It's worth trying Lumin as well as the Kazoo app - I use both on my iPad and slightly prefer Lumin.  There's a lot of useful information in this thread:-

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...lumin-and-bubbleupnp

Posted on: 03 October 2016 by R.K

Squeezebox into NDS

Posted on: 03 October 2016 by Innocent Bystander

Have you tried Audirvana on the Mac? It integrates Quobuz, also Tidal and one other. It gives exemplary sound quality on a Mac Mini when set up in optimised mode (easy instructions given), at least from locally stored music (I haven't tried any online streaming services). It is available as free trial, so easily evaluated (subject to connectivity - see below). There's also a dedicated control app, though last I looked it wasn't available on free trial.

For best sound quality you need to use the usb output, preferably setting a dedicated Usb bus (again instructions given). With Hugo DAC it needs an isolator to remove the inevitable electrical/RF noise from the computer - I used a Gustard U12, which is surprisingly low cost and performs very well. (No isolator needed into a DAC with excellent noise rejection such as Chord Dave.) Richard Dane has been testing the Gustard as a convertor from USB to SPDIF to feed nDAC which hasn't a usb input, so same setup there albeit for a different reason. Not sure if an isolator is needed into DAC V1's usb input. 

Posted on: 03 October 2016 by lowdean

I don't think any of these approaches for better SQ and control will let you see the Qobuz booklets, which you mention as a reason for choosing Qobuz, but it's not difficult to pull them on the Qobuz app as you listen via a different route. 

Posted on: 04 October 2016 by gert

I had started the how-to-qobuz thread and am currently using the BubbleUpnPServer installed on my Synology NAS. You cannot display booklets this way. And the solution is not perfectly reliable, but in most cases it works fine. Sometimes it takes some seconds until the songs do change when touching a new track. But gapless playback does work if you leave the playlist playing without interaction. Sometimes a track stops playing without any reason. I do not know why. Then it takes some seconds until everything comes back to life and the next track starts to play. But as I am using this kind of streaming only for very detailed previewing albums (in opposite to the 30 seconds that usually can be prelistened), it is ok for me. Normally playback does work without problems and you can play a full album without an interruption.

The advantage of this solution: It is completely free. So you can try if it works for you.

Before I had tried this way, I had thought that streaming would route over my mobile phone or tablet. But these are only used to search for songs and set up the playlist. Once the playlist is set up, the BubbleUPnPserver is controlling your streamer all alone. And if you have hard wired the streamer and NAS to the internet, the streamed data is not going the wifi way.

As control apps I am using Kazoo und Lumin on iOS. Lumin is better for finding new albums, because it has more detailed whats-new-categories (one per genre), while Kazoo only does show the common whats-new-folder  that combines all genres in one, but shows less albums.

On Android I am using the BubbleUPnP controller app.

Greetings
Gert

Posted on: 06 October 2016 by Nick Lees

Having given up waiting for Naim to integrate Qobuz I've gone the BubbleUPNP>Synology NAS>Kazoo route, which was absurdly simple and effective, for the 15 day trial prior to (possibly) going Sublime (I am still interested in permanently owning the music).

 

Random observations:

- Sound quality seems very good.

- Good classical coverage (nice to have Chandos present, though no Hyperion)

- Kazoo isn't a patch on the Naim app and I miss the integration that the Tidal link provided (I tried Lumin but was even less impressed)

- Discovering the streaming gaps I hadn't spotted previously (e.g. can download ECM recordings but can't stream)

- Noting that the number of Sublime discounts isn't as many as I'd previously thought (has this changed recently?).

Posted on: 06 October 2016 by gert
Gary Shaw posted:

- Discovering the streaming gaps I hadn't spotted previously (e.g. can download ECM recordings but can't stream)

- Noting that the number of Sublime discounts isn't as many as I'd previously thought (has this changed recently?).

Ah yes, this is true. I was disappointed regarding these two things, too. You cannot stream (IIRC) Prince, David Bowie, Peter Gabriel, etc. So the big labels seem to be afraid to let there big artists be streamed?

edit: David Bowie is not true. I did stream the five years box and some others, as I remember now.

And the sublime discounts indeed aren't as many as I thought, too. E.g. the alt-j albums were not covered by this. So I waited for a normal special price for the latest album that occured some weeks ago. But sometimes the discounts are really great. E.g. Grace Jones:

Night clubbing (Deluxe Edition):
CD quality: 19,49€ (IMHO too much)
hires quality: 26,23€ (are they stupid!?)
hires sublime: 14,95€ (this is quite ok, I think.)

The same prices for Warm leatherette (Deluxe).
And for the "Disco" Collection: 25,99€ vs 34,98€ vs 19,94€

So you cannot plan to buy every album for a better price, but often enough you find some good discounts.

The big problem with the free streaming is, that it feels stressful to catch up on all these new releases that come out every week. This leads to way too much music that you can stream and that you will buy and that you do not have enough time for to listen to it

Posted on: 06 October 2016 by Goon525

Richard

'Once installed you configure Bubble by opening the configuration page (there should be a way of accessing this from your Synology page)' - I've got a long way through the installation, but can't see how to access the Bubble configuration page via Synology or otherwise. Any chance you could elaborate?

 

Thanks

Paul

Posted on: 06 October 2016 by gert

You find the bubble configuration page in the top bar of the main screen of the synology system. On the left side is an icon that opens a full screen icon start menu. In this menu there should be a bubble upnp server icon.

Posted on: 06 October 2016 by trickydickie

Paul, looks like Gert has answered.  I have QNAP so I couldn't have been specific for Synology.

You can always access it using a web browser, go to http://yournasipaddress:58050 

Richard

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Goon525

Thanks, Gerry and a Richard. Will try later.

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Goon525

Gert, apologies about the idiot auto-correct of your name to Gerry. Neither your nor Richard's suggestions will work, and I think my lack of knowledge of the set-up process may be responsible. I have successfully installed Java 8, which was necessary, and I thought I had downloaded and installed Bubble Server on to the Synology. But what I've done is cut'n'pasted the downloaded folder in a new shared folder called Public (as per the instructions). I haven't actually opened or executed anything - and there was no instruction to do so. Am I missing something obvious?

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Nick Lees

Paul,

To install the package, go to Package Centre, then Manual Install tab and Browse to where you downloaded the SPK thingy. If you've followed the instructions (Make sure 'User Home Services' is enabled (in DSM: Control Panel > User > Advance, 'Enable user home services'). Without this, BubbleUPnP Server will not start. If you get error "This package does not contain a digital signature" after selecting the .spk package, open Package Manager, click Settings. In 'General', set the Trust Level to 'Any Publisher') it should be installed in then Homes directory.

Then in the top left there's the Main Menu symbol. If you click on that, the BUubbleUPNP Server icon should be there (a cheerful yellow) if you've installed it properly. 

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Goon525

Gary

Your input much appreciated. Unfortunately, though I get an 'Invalid File Format' message when I try and load the Bubble package. I do have 'User Home Services' enabled, and 'Trust any Publisher'.

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by gert

Here is a short howto for installation:
https://www.bubblesoftapps.com...er/#synology_install

Did you download the correct (Synology) package? And did you upload this correct package to the DSM package manager for installation?

Is the DSM version of your NAS uptodate? Which Synology NAS  do you  own?

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by ChrisSU

This all sounds like a lot of hassle! Maybe you should just flog your SU and get a Nova.....

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by gert

Will this be a good solution? You need to stream the data via wifi from your mobile or tablet to the nova. Is this stable? And will it work if the device goes to sleep?

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by ChrisSU

To be honest, I have no idea. If Naim are prepared to provide this sort of functionality to allow us to use Qobuz etc rather than providing Tidal style in-app access, I presume they think it will still sound good. Time will tell...

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Goon525

Gert, I believe the answer is Yes in each case - I've been following the instructions in the 'How to' you quote. My NAS is a 411j. I believe I picked the right download for the processor in this.

Chris, I fear I'm coming to the same conclusion  - this is a lot of hassle, and pushing my IT capabilities. I'm not bad at following clear instructions but there are bits missing along the way in this process. Picking up Gert's latest posting, I'm not sure how the Chromecast input on the new Nova will actually work to provide Qobuz. Will it, as Gert suggests, still require a wireless connection- in which case I might as well stick with my current iPad / Apple TV solution which does actually work the vast majority of the time and will cost me no further time or money!

Thanks to you both.

Paul

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by gert

Paul, I am very sorry that it does not work. I can only imagine two things that might be a problem now:

1) Java is not installed correctly. Did the package center offer the java package automatically or had you to download java manually and maybe add a third party repository for a java installer package?

If you open the log file via the link on the java package detail view page in the package center, does this report any error?

2) is maybe the bubble server package broken? Maybe you can try to download it again? Maybe clear the browsers cache first to be sure it is downloaded for real again.

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by Dan43

Not sure this helps but I had a spare Android phone that I ran Bubble UPnP on and it streamed Qobuz with no problems. If just streaming this works well for me when I use it, which is only now and then so haven't dug as deep.

Apologies if this is off the main question.

Posted on: 07 October 2016 by gert

Oh, another idea:

3) try to reboot the NAS after you have installed the java package. Just in case.

Posted on: 08 October 2016 by ChrisByrd

Paul,

Don't know if it helps, but I've just noticed that Audirvana+ (which integrates very well with Qobuz) now allows you to access the Qobuz booklets - in fact I find them slightly easier to read from within A+ than the Qobuz desktop.  Unfortunately, this capability doesn't exist yet in the A+ remote app.  Ironically, having recommended the Bubble route I started having problems as well, which is why I tried A+ again.