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yeti42 posted:

My order is in for a Core but as far as I know I'll have to buy a hard drive to go in it. Is there any advantage in a SSD, say a 2tb crucial mx300 against a spinning disk, perhapse a WD red at around fifth of the price for 3tb?

For backup is a usb drive or two sufficiant or do I need a NAS?

I wouldn't recommend WD Red (or any "NAS" rated) drives for use in a single drive environment ... typically "NAS" specced drives will have a reduced TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) setting which, in a RAID environment will ensure that the entire array doesn't get bogged down by extended duration read retries on data blocks that are difficult to read (the block will be generated from the parity data or the mirror) but in a single drive environment then a reduced TLER could mean that you get read errors caused by the drive timing out and aborting the reading of a data block too quickly.

To back up to USB you will need a USB drive that is the same size (or bigger than) the drive you have fitted internally.

Cheers

Phil

I'm not sure why you'd order a Core until you know if it sounds any better than a Nas. There's no reason why it would: the UnitiServe certainly doesn't. 

Convenience.

Mucking about with a computer to rip my CDs just doesn't appeal. I'm only taking this step because I need the space used by the CDs for more vinyl.

The CDX2/555ps is sounding better than ever just as I make the move to replace it.

Looks like the list isn't ready for release but then neither is the Core it seems. Didn't know about the NAS rated drives being rubbish for anything else so I'll have to wait for the list I think.

yeti42 posted:

<<SNIP>> Didn't know about the NAS rated drives being rubbish for anything else so I'll have to wait for the list I think.

I didn't actually say they were rubbish for use in a single drive environment - just that because of their tailoring to a multi-drive RAID environment then they could be more susceptible to giving read errors that other, more suitable, drives might not.

Cheers

Phil

I was being slightly tongue in cheek with my coice of word there Phil.

yeti42 posted:

I was being slightly tongue in cheek with my coice of word there Phil.

I'm just very conscious that things that are posted here often get taken and built upon...

By extrapolation it would probably end up at "Phil at Naim said never to use WD Reds because they give errors all the time".

Cheers

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

yeti42 posted:

I was being slightly tongue in cheek with my coice of word there Phil.

I'm just very conscious that things that are posted here often get taken and built upon...

By extrapolation it would probably end up at "Phil at Naim said never to use WD Reds because they give errors all the time".

Cheers

Phil

I've already noted that I should never buy a WD Red drive and I'll let all my friends know too. Thanks Phil!

iliria posted:

Pcd posted:

You do not need hype to sell good products they sell themselves ?

A very generalistic and misguided statement in my opinion. If good products sold themselves then Apple, Mercedes and a ton of other companies would not need to advertise at all. Apple very likely sell nearly half of their products because of hype.

 

Actually neither Ferrari, nor Rolls Royce advertise. And Linn/Naim/Cyrus advertise very little. In fact they don't need to as the websites act as advertisements.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Madhatter posted:

I also dropped into Brighton Audio-T on Saturday, just to find a bit more about the Core.  Jason from Naim had a couple of interesting things to say. Firstly that the Core into nDAC as a source won’t sound as good as a Core with a streamer. This is all to do with timing apparently. Secondly, and more surprisingly, that rips using the Core will sound better than those done using a computer and dbPoweramp.  

 

Re sound quality into DAC vs streamer seems at odds with Phil Harris' experience which IIRC was to the effect that he couldn't tell the difference between Core direct into a DAC and NDX into same DAC. Of course that's in his syetem and his ears. 

That suggests Core isn't a substitute for Melco et al, as many may have hoped it might be.

As for rips sounding better than computer and power amp, that's an interesting claim. ANyone know why might that be, or is it likely to be just hype, meaning if computer and dbPoweramp not set up right they can produce imperfect rips?

I've never been really satisfied with dbpoweramp rips. Always found eac to sound better.

manicm posted:

iliria posted:

Pcd posted:

You do not need hype to sell good products they sell themselves ?

A very generalistic and misguided statement in my opinion. If good products sold themselves then Apple, Mercedes and a ton of other companies would not need to advertise at all. Apple very likely sell nearly half of their products because of hype.

 

Actually neither Ferrari, nor Rolls Royce advertise. And Linn/Naim/Cyrus advertise very little. In fact they don't need to as the websites act as advertisements.

I'm sorry, but that is a silly statement. Just type 'Ferrari advert' or 'Rolls Royce advert' into Google Images and you'll see why. Very nearly all successful businesses spend money on marketing, and those that don't have very specialist reasons not to. The term 'hype' is contentious as it implies over-blown claims, and I certainly don't advocate those, but marketing is essential. The term 'advertising' is elastic and falling out of fashion in the modern era, but websites, PR and, yes, even this forum are not free - it's all marketing. 

Oooh, does that mean that me saying I prefer Chord's DACs to Naim's mean I am advertising for them? If so, how do I get paid???

Well, I'm a business school lecturer, so take this how you want . . . 

In the modern era, we use terminology such as 'bought media' (eg a Facebook advert), 'owned media' (eg a brand website) and 'earned media' (eg PR). All have their strengths and weaknesses, and most businesses, including Naim, mix all three. This forum is 'earned media', ie we are acting as advocates for the brand and its products, which encourages loyalty and up-sell. 

Sorry, no payment for 'earned media'.

So?what does that mean if I have no brand loyalty for Naim, but I do have brand respect?

Brand respect is better than indifference. The nature of 'earned media' is that it's unpredictable and hard to quantify - some people may read this forum and be put off the Naim brand (perhaps having read about the Dead UnitiServe Society or the love for the Hugo) and others will find it encouraging. Naim are taking a risk by hosting this forum - specifically, they're taking a marketing risk - that the good outweighs the bad.

The notion that marketing = advertising is fifty years out of date. This forum = marketing, the website = marketing, pricing = marketing, product design = marketing, channel choices = marketing.

Solid Air posted:

manicm posted:

iliria posted:

Pcd posted:

You do not need hype to sell good products they sell themselves ?

A very generalistic and misguided statement in my opinion. If good products sold themselves then Apple, Mercedes and a ton of other companies would not need to advertise at all. Apple very likely sell nearly half of their products because of hype.

 

Actually neither Ferrari, nor Rolls Royce advertise. And Linn/Naim/Cyrus advertise very little. In fact they don't need to as the websites act as advertisements.

I'm sorry, but that is a silly statement. Just type 'Ferrari advert' or 'Rolls Royce advert' into Google Images and you'll see why. Very nearly all successful businesses spend money on marketing, and those that don't have very specialist reasons not to. The term 'hype' is contentious as it implies over-blown claims, and I certainly don't advocate those, but marketing is essential. The term 'advertising' is elastic and falling out of fashion in the modern era, but websites, PR and, yes, even this forum are not free - it's all marketing. 

No it's not a silly statement, why don't you ask Linn how much they spend on traditional marketing - very little actually. They actually cannot afford to - their profit margins are really not that high. They instead spend on events like listening sessions and demos at selected locations. 

You may be a marketing graduate but you come across as a bit naive. Linn and Naim's biggest marketing spend remains their websites. Reviews also bring them product awareness. They're completely different from Apple.

@Manicm

I was commenting on your statement that Rolls Royce and Ferrari don't advertise, which they clearly do.

I don't know much about Linn. My guess on Naim - and it is a guess - is the cost of paid-for media far exceeds their website. Their advertising on the London Underground alone is pretty high for a company that size, plus magazines and social. Their website is pretty standard and the content is largely static, so I doubt it's a comparable expense. But as I say, I don't have hard data.

I don't know how their ratios compare with Apple. They may well be higher as a percentage of revenue, but it would be a meaningless statistic anyway. Obviously they're nothing like Apple, the largest company in the world.

My overall point is that all of these companies do extensive marketing (for their size). One form of marketing is not 'better' than another, it's all about getting the right mix to meet business priorities.

And in all my years in marketing, that's literally the first time I've been called naive.

@SolidAir fair enough, but how can you call profit/marketing ratios 'meaningless'? And most hifi sites are fairly static, but it costs a substantial amount to maintain, especially with forums. I'm almost certain Linn/Cyrus/Naim spend more on demo sessions/ hifi show exhibitions than big scale advertising like the Underground, because of their frequency.

manicm posted:

Solid Air posted:

manicm posted:

iliria posted:

Pcd posted:

You do not need hype to sell good products they sell themselves ?

A very generalistic and misguided statement in my opinion. If good products sold themselves then Apple, Mercedes and a ton of other companies would not need to advertise at all. Apple very likely sell nearly half of their products because of hype.

 

Actually neither Ferrari, nor Rolls Royce advertise. And Linn/Naim/Cyrus advertise very little. In fact they don't need to as the websites act as advertisements.

I'm sorry, but that is a silly statement. Just type 'Ferrari advert' or 'Rolls Royce advert' into Google Images and you'll see why. Very nearly all successful businesses spend money on marketing, and those that don't have very specialist reasons not to. The term 'hype' is contentious as it implies over-blown claims, and I certainly don't advocate those, but marketing is essential. The term 'advertising' is elastic and falling out of fashion in the modern era, but websites, PR and, yes, even this forum are not free - it's all marketing. 

No it's not a silly statement, why don't you ask Linn how much they spend on traditional marketing - very little actually. They actually cannot afford to - their profit margins are really not that high. They instead spend on events like listening sessions and demos at selected locations. 

You may be a marketing graduate but you come across as a bit naive. Linn and Naim's biggest marketing spend remains their websites. Reviews also bring them product awareness. They're completely different from Apple.

Ferrari and Rolls Royce are legends and dont need to advertise as much. And still, they advertise quite a lot. By comparing Naim to Ferrari and RR  and then say that Naim and Linn are completely different from Apple you are contradicting yourself. I assume you work for both Naim and Linn based on the fact that you are making a certain statement about their marketing expenditure?

Rolls Royce is affordable by the mega rich and the mega rich are well aware of the brand. Middle and lower classes have no hope of buying a Rolls. Thus Rolls' advertising needs may not be as high as those of Naim.

Naim is aimed at the middle and lower classes especially considering that nowadays it is quite easy to get a loan or CC for £3k. Therefore the advertising needs to be more intensive, if the company is to expand customer base.

Listening demos and sessions is not as effective at reaching new customers. Rather It may prove more beneficial to convince existing customers to upgrade. Whereas an indepth review of the product which has been carried out by someone impartial (or at least someone that appears to be impartial and with no vested interests) has more "convincing power". In my opinion that is. I would put more weight on a review carried out by someone impartial rather than a review from an authorised reseller of the product.

we have aforum member in another naim thread giving great feedback on the atom today 

just saying, for those interested...

cheers 

Sorry, I should have been more clear: I meant that a comparison of Naim with Apple would be meaningless, just because of the difference in scale. For example, the cost of designing a poster is about the same whether you're Naim or Apple, but the media spend and revenues will be vastly different. So small companies tend to have to spend more relative to their size than huge ones. 

I agree that marketing ratios are critical measures.

Who's that then?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Who's that then?

Ha ha ha thats you :-) 

just trying to bring back the discussion to the actual units and sound. Looks like I failed !!! 

iliria posted:

manicm posted:

Solid Air posted:

manicm posted:

iliria posted:

Pcd posted:

You do not need hype to sell good products they sell themselves ?

A very generalistic and misguided statement in my opinion. If good products sold themselves then Apple, Mercedes and a ton of other companies would not need to advertise at all. Apple very likely sell nearly half of their products because of hype.

 

Actually neither Ferrari, nor Rolls Royce advertise. And Linn/Naim/Cyrus advertise very little. In fact they don't need to as the websites act as advertisements.

I'm sorry, but that is a silly statement. Just type 'Ferrari advert' or 'Rolls Royce advert' into Google Images and you'll see why. Very nearly all successful businesses spend money on marketing, and those that don't have very specialist reasons not to. The term 'hype' is contentious as it implies over-blown claims, and I certainly don't advocate those, but marketing is essential. The term 'advertising' is elastic and falling out of fashion in the modern era, but websites, PR and, yes, even this forum are not free - it's all marketing. 

No it's not a silly statement, why don't you ask Linn how much they spend on traditional marketing - very little actually. They actually cannot afford to - their profit margins are really not that high. They instead spend on events like listening sessions and demos at selected locations. 

You may be a marketing graduate but you come across as a bit naive. Linn and Naim's biggest marketing spend remains their websites. Reviews also bring them product awareness. They're completely different from Apple.

Ferrari and Rolls Royce are legends and dont need to advertise as much. And still, they advertise quite a lot. By comparing Naim to Ferrari and RR  and then say that Naim and Linn are completely different from Apple you are contradicting yourself. I assume you work for both Naim and Linn based on the fact that you are making a certain statement about their marketing expenditure?

Rolls Royce is affordable by the mega rich and the mega rich are well aware of the brand. Middle and lower classes have no hope of buying a Rolls. Thus Rolls' advertising needs may not be as high as those of Naim.

Naim is aimed at the middle and lower classes especially considering that nowadays it is quite easy to get a loan or CC for £3k. Therefore the advertising needs to be more intensive, if the company is to expand customer base.

Listening demos and sessions is not as effective at reaching new customers. Rather It may prove more beneficial to convince existing customers to upgrade. Whereas an indepth review of the product which has been carried out by someone impartial (or at least someone that appears to be impartial and with no vested interests) has more "convincing power". In my opinion that is. I would put more weight on a review carried out by someone impartial rather than a review from an authorised reseller of the product.

Naim is patently not aimed at only the lower to middle classes. Their top end streamers, for example, cost around 3k +, then you need to add amplification and speakers to match and you're nudging a 15-20k system. Naim and Linn are over 40 years old and people know who they are. I would agree Naim would add more marketing for products like Muso, but their top end products will advertise through demos, sessions, exhibitions.

Crabby posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Who's that then?

Ha ha ha thats you :-) 

just trying to bring back the discussion to the actual units and sound. Looks like I failed !!! 

 

Keep trying! I'm far more interested in that than listening to people banging on about corporate marketing.